What is the point in full handicap competitions?

[Crow]

Handicaps are used in handicap competitions and they do level the playing field.
There are also many more mid/high handicappers in the field, which increases the chance of a mid/high hcp winner.

Admittedly it's harder for a low hcp to post a low net score so they may have less chance in a handicap comp but going to 3/4 swings it the other way; 24 hcp = 18 playing hcp, to score 2 under in a 3/4 comp (achievable for most low hcp players) the 24 hcp has to score 8 under.

If I had the skill to get to Cat 1, I'd look to play in comps that pitted me against similarly skilled players such as scratch opens and the like, not Club Handicap competitions which could be described as the golf equivalent of lower local league football, ie, they're perfect for the social and aspiring player but not for the committed low handicapper.

So I say, leave them alone!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I guess there could be an argument if you are Cat 1 that you'd get a level playing field from Open events more so than most club events as these tend to be balloted out in favour of the low guys. However as the crack tends to be with members of your club and its why you pay your subs until they find a better system I guess you have to take the rough with the smooth and accept that as a low handicapper you can have a great round and not win

 

[dangermouse]

Stableford favours the higher handicapper in my opinion (as a fairly high handicapper myself), because mistakes aren't punished as much, and there is more chance of getting lots of 3 & 4 point holes (eg a par with a shot or even 2!)

I reckon medal competitions probably work out okay in terms of a bell curve of winning handicaps. Of say 16 at my club last summer, 3 or 4 would have been won by lads off 16 or higher, a similar number by single figure players, and the bulk by people off 10-14 - the sweet spot for pot-hunters at my club. There are lots more high handicappers than low in our comps, so I'd suggest lower players had more than their fair share at my place.

High handicappers tended to win on warm days with firm ground and little wind, with the better players winning in more testing conditions and also in multi round competitions, which is reflective of different abilities.

Its not a fair comparison for the OP to moan about regularly being beaten by a high handicapper. Each single one of those high handicappers will expect you to beat them 8 or 9 times out of ten - you are comparing one to many. You might shoot level once a year and have a good chance of winning - each high handicapper might shoot 14 over gross, giving them a good chance of winning about the same number of times in the course of a season, thus achieving the point of the handicap system

 

[shagster]

you can have more divisions-more chances
you could have 3/4 etc-decline in entrants as less chance of winning
lowest score wins- no entrants and keeps lower h/c happy as they will win everything, but no one to applaud at presentation night
or every time you play a game of golf, put a card in, this is a more realistic reflection on your current playing ability - but i wont hold my breath
the realistic thing is the best comps are won by the best players normally, and yes i have won on 16 and 8, so i am happy with the current system, BUT having comps off winter tees, which is little more than pitch and putt, thats another story
shagster

 

[Leftie]

Sorry EZ but you have lost me in your argument.

Your opening statement was “The winner of a full handicap stableford competition is supposed to be the player who played the best (relative to his usual scores and ability) on the day, right?


You then reply to me “Also its not stableford that I have a problem with, its full handicap competitions I have a problem with…”

I suggested that you must have played better than your h/cap on many occasions and may have won a few comps in that time. OK, you may never have won, but you must have been in the money for 2nd or 3rd on more than one occasion. If not, were you born with your current h/cap?

Saying that you have never shot the course record is spurious to say the least. Are you telling us that in getting to 4.2 you have never shot a nett mid 60’s??

The h/capping system may not be perfect, but I’ve never yet seen anyone come up with a better system. If the number of entrants to any given comp were evenly spread throughout the h/caps, then the majority would probably be won by the lower h/cappers. Probably 90/95% of the entrants to a comp are higher h/cap than you so that is the reason the odds are stacked against you. Someone will always have a good day and shoot the lights out – and they will get cut, just like you have been many times. Hopefully, if they continue to improve, they might also get to low single figures. No doubt they will then complain that they can’t win any comps because the system is stacked against them.

 

[EZprophet]

Sorry EZ but you have lost me in your argument.

Your opening statement was “The winner of a full handicap stableford competition is supposed to be the player who played the best (relative to his usual scores and ability) on the day, right?


You then reply to me “Also its not stableford that I have a problem with, its full handicap competitions I have a problem with…”

I suggested that you must have played better than your h/cap on many occasions and may have won a few comps in that time. OK, you may never have won, but you must have been in the money for 2nd or 3rd on more than one occasion. If not, were you born with your current h/cap?

Saying that you have never shot the course record is spurious to say the least. Are you telling us that in getting to 4.2 you have never shot a nett mid 60’s??

The h/capping system may not be perfect, but I’ve never yet seen anyone come up with a better system. If the number of entrants to any given comp were evenly spread throughout the h/caps, then the majority would probably be won by the lower h/cappers. Probably 90/95% of the entrants to a comp are higher h/cap than you so that is the reason the odds are stacked against you. Someone will always have a good day and shoot the lights out – and they will get cut, just like you have been many times. Hopefully, if they continue to improve, they might also get to low single figures. No doubt they will then complain that they can’t win any comps because the system is stacked against them.

Sorry if I was unclear, but what I mean is exactly what I said. I was just using stableford in my specific example, but its NOT stableford that I was questioning, it was FULL HANDICAP STABLEFORD, that I was questioning. (or any full handicap format for that matter...)

I think you are getting confused because there is an argument that Ive heard before about any stableford format benefitting certain players, but that is actually completely irrelivant to what I am talking about.

I was given my handicap because I handed in three competition scorecards and shot something like 72, 73 and 77, but cant remember exactly. I have obviously shot better than my handicap on many occasions but I have never shot 7 shots better than my handicap (which is a course record gross 66 at my club)which is what I would need to shoot to get 43 points which is what was needed to win the competition!

My argument as to the why the system is flawed basically comes down to this. It is a lot harder for a low handicap player to beat their handicap by seven shots than it is for a higher handicap player to beat their handicap by seven shots. This is simply down to the maths of it. The range of scores that a high handicap player will make in a year is larger (their best and worst scores being farther apart) than the range of scores a low handicap player will.

Therefore on a day when the low handicapper and high handicapper both hit the lowest score in their "range" of scores, the high handicapper will win because their lowest score is farther from their handicap, meaning their nett score will be lower...

The argument you make about there being more high handicap players, meaning they are going to in more often is obviously true, but I promise you that even if there were equal number of every handicap in the field, the lower handicap players would win a lot less often in the long run.

I would also like to point out that this is not really a rant about the system because I want to win prizes, its a rant about the system as a whole and how stupid it is.

I also don't get the argument that lower handicap players should only worry about proper scratch competitions or whatever as surely one of the great thing about golf is that people can have compete properly against others of differing abilities, so surely if the system isnt levelling the playing field properly, it should be changed...

 

[Swinger]

From one side all handicaps do is reward bad golf.

From a business side handicaps make sense. They give all players a chance to win something therefore making golf appeal to all ages and abilities.

It needs to be considered that important events are off scratch and if you can't compete in these then you have a whole host of events with handicap limits.

Personally I enjoy the challenge of trying to compete with the 20+ guys, and while they can push their chest out after a good day with 42 point and picking up some cash i don't generally do too bad either.

If you let them get to you then just play in scratch events or with people of a similar ability.

Even if the odds are stacked against you it should push you to do better.

People not being genuine about handicaps??

Well there is nothing new there, whatever system you have will be open to abuse. That will never change.

 

[HRC99]

I believe that GM will be looking at questions like this in upcoming issues.

It would be very interesting to see detailed comparison of the slope system against our handicap system.

But, ultimately, for better or worse, it's what we've got and until someone comes up with a better idea or system, we are stuck with it.

 

[bobmac]

Does anyone play in a society seperate from their home club and if so, is your society h/cap the same, lower or higher than your official one?

 

[Smigger79]

If I'm understanding the OP correctly you're lowest handicap card was 72, you're course par is 69 giving you 1st ever handicap of 3 (depending on tee used SSS etc.

I think you've just got to accept you're a one in a million case and I agree you will have little chance of winning full h/cap comps. I'm off 18 and have won a fair few coming down from 28 the last couple of years but would swap that to be in you're position.

 

[bladeplayer]

Does anyone play in a society seperate from their home club and if so, is your society h/cap the same, lower or higher than your official one?

yeah Bob i do , i play in the local GAA (irish football) society. play off lower , have played down to 3 in that society , won a prize last sat so il be down to 1 on the next outing . & YES i do return score card to my club. hope im doing right .society handicap is graded by overall winner cut 3, cat winner cut 2 cat 2nd cut 1 , have to play 3 comps to qualify for a prize , & if you dont feature in prizes for 3 comps you get 1 shot back .. works nicely for us . i think..

 

[bobmac]

Does anyone play in a society seperate from their home club and if so, is your society h/cap the same, lower or higher than your official one?

yeah Bob i do , i play in the local GAA (irish football) society. play off lower , have played down to 3 in that society , won a prize last sat so il be down to 1 on the next outing . & YES i do return score card to my club. hope im doing right .society handicap is graded by overall winner cut 3, cat winner cut 2 cat 2nd cut 1 , have to play 3 comps to qualify for a prize , & if you dont feature in prizes for 3 comps you get 1 shot back .. works nicely for us . i think..

I was just wondering if anyone has a society h/cap that is higher than their club h/cap?

 

[bladeplayer]

Does anyone play in a society seperate from their home club and if so, is your society h/cap the same, lower or higher than your official one?

yeah Bob i do , i play in the local GAA (irish football) society. play off lower , have played down to 3 in that society , won a prize last sat so il be down to 1 on the next outing . & YES i do return score card to my club. hope im doing right .society handicap is graded by overall winner cut 3, cat winner cut 2 cat 2nd cut 1 , have to play 3 comps to qualify for a prize , & if you dont feature in prizes for 3 comps you get 1 shot back .. works nicely for us . i think..

I was just wondering if anyone has a society h/cap that is higher than their club h/cap?

not sure if we have any or not mate .. is that allowed ?? or would it be up to the society to decide ??

 

[viscount17]

Does anyone play in a society seperate from their home club and if so, is your society h/cap the same, lower or higher than your official one?

my society handicap is 1 less than national (you cannot be higher, no matter how badly you play - I know!). visitors/new members always get (national - 2).

my society h/cap was lower at one point by virtue of a couple of wins but the changes are more marked, win big and get cut a lot, but you go up by 0.2

 

[Leftie]

I was just wondering if anyone has a society h/cap that is higher than their club h/cap?

I suppose that Forum meets are a bit like society days. Having watched your epic struggle against Smiffy last year, maybe Smiffy should be knocked a couple of shots whilst you should maybe be off 4?

 

[EZprophet]

If I'm understanding the OP correctly you're lowest handicap card was 72, you're course par is 69 giving you 1st ever handicap of 3 (depending on tee used SSS etc.

I think you've just got to accept you're a one in a million case and I agree you will have little chance of winning full h/cap comps. I'm off 18 and have won a fair few coming down from 28 the last couple of years but would swap that to be in you're position.

Just to clarify mate its not my first ever handicap but my first ever CONGU handicap... moved here from Bermuda where they use the USGA handicap system. My handicap was 2.9 but it wasnt transferrable to my new club, so had to get a new handicap.

I reckon if the handicap system was changed to level the playing field properly it would be such a positive thing for the entire game of golf, not just for low handicappers. Higher handicappers would be able to compete properly with low handicappers and beat the fair and square, instead of because the system works in their favour.

I don't understand why the USGA or CONGU hasnt tried to work out a better formula tbh.... Hell, give me two maths geeks, a powerful computer and access to the GHIN handicap database and I could work it out for them!!

 

[Smiffy]

Having watched your epic struggle against Smiffy last year, maybe Smiffy should be knocked a couple of shots whilst you should maybe be off 4?

And he's still be moaning about having to play off full difference

 

[upsidedown]

Out here, NZ, 9 out of 10 times the higher handicappers will prevail in a Stableford but when it comes to Stroke/medal it's the lower ones turn.
For me that seems about right as IMHO it's medal play that sorts the men from the boys

For club championships we're split into 4 different grades, by current handicap levels then play matchplay in your grade with no shots given