What is the point in full handicap competitions?

[EZprophet]

The winner of a full handicap stableford competition is supposed to be the player who played the best (relative to his usual scores and ability) on the day, right?

My question to you is should this be an achievement worthy of winning something?

What I mean is that, if you assume that every player at my hypothetical golf club has the correct handicap for their ability (obviously no club in the world has this but bear with me) and the same 30 players played a full handicap stableford competition every day for the next 20 years, the amount of times each player won the tournament would be very similar (and in infinity would be exactly the same). So is it really an "achievement" to win this competition?

Also, do you think that the lower handicapped player is at a disadvantage in a full handicap competition?

Due to the fact that a lower handicap player is for the most part going to be more consistent in their scoring, they are going to have a much smaller standard deviation from their average score. So while they probably will shoot closer to their handicap more often than a higher handicap, they are less likely to shoot a score way lower than their handicap, which is the kind of score that wins competitions.

For example I played in our Thursday stableford last week, played fairly well and shot a 72 for 37 points. I dont know where I came in the competition but there were like 15 or so entrants and 4 people had 40 points and the winner had 42 points. For me to win the competition I would have to have shot a 66... The course record!!

I'm not saying that this guy didnt deserve to win because he obviously played out of his boots to score that well, but I just think that the nature of the handicap system favours the higher handicapper as it happens a lot more often that a 20 handicapper shoots an 83 (42 points at my course) than a 4 handicapper is going to shoot a 66 (42 points and course rec at my course).

So while the lower handicapped player is going to finish last less often than the higher handicapper, he is also going to finish first less often. And the problem obviously is that it doesnt matter if you finish last or not, but it does matter if you finish first!

I just want to point out that this is not a rant from a player who is annoyed that he doesnt ever win any competitions, its a player who is annoyed that he doesnt even have a CHANCE to win any competitions!

I think one of the best things about our beloved game is that any player can have a good match against any other player, regardless of ability, and we definitely dont want to lose that. But I feel like the current handicap system does a terrible job of levelling the playing field for competition.

What do you think?

 

[bobmac]

In a minute you'll get all those quoting Congu myths at you saying how lower handicaps used to win everything.
As someone who has been there, got all the tee shirts, you're preaching to the converted here.

 

[bladeplayer]

i can see your point mate & i posted something pretty similar a while back regarding handicaps & how it seems (i think it was) 43/44+ points was winning comps& how come people seem to be shooting between 7/8 & sometimes more shots better than handicaps, i was suprised that most people thought this was ok & common .. i do accept the forum answers that were given tho, so long as it wasnt the same person each week then it was ok & common to most clubs, & with these answers i "kinda" changed my thoughts on it.. my answer to you is to play stroke comps mate , only way youl get a chance ..

 

[Macster]

I know what you are saying, and see my post on similar topic, but our best player in the Club does feature high up or win on a lot of occasions, and the Notice Boards around the Clubhouse bear testement to his scoring abilities, - he's won lots of Matchplay/Strokeplay/Scratch events.

maybe uber low Handicappers just have to accept that in 'General Medals', the odd are perhaps stacked against them ?
They have their chances in other events more suited to their strengths ?

 

[Scouser]

I have to admit I get but dont get the handicap system... I havent got one mainly cos i shoot 114 on the average round....if i some how managed to beat even a 18 handicapper I wouldnt think it was an achievement.

Im crap and they are better yet i win. I have played many sports and I get beat or win for a reason ...not because i was given a 3 nil head start or 120 runs or however many points!!!

 

[daymond]

The cure is to have a maximum handicap for the competition as is sometimes the case for opens 18 might be reasonable and cuts out the 23/24 handicap bandits.
Played an away match last week against 13 and 23 handicapers. First hole shot a par 5 so did Mr 23 with a stroke; one down. Second hole shot a par 4 so did Mr 23 again with a stroke; two down. And so it continued. Lost by a dog licence 7 and 6. My partner and I were not happy bunnies.

Clubs yes
H/C 14

 

[Leftie]

To get to your current h/cap, you must have played far better than your h/cap many, many times and I dare say have probably won a few comps in the process. It just seems unfair to you now that other people who are now improving and reducing their h/caps are winning Stableford comps. They are only doing what you have probably done in the past.

If you don't like the format of Stableford, don't play it. Stick to medal off full h/cap, scratch comps or match play where you still "on average" have the advantage.

 

[bladeplayer]

maybe uber low Handicappers just have to accept that in 'General Medals', the odd are perhaps stacked against them ?
They have their chances in other events more suited to their strengths ?

Is that not contradicting the whole purpose of the handicap system tho ? was it not invented so everybody has an equal chance? no mater what the comp is .?

 

[TheClaw]

Handicaps are baws! Do away with them altogether!

As with every other sport, the person with the best score should win.

 

[Macster]

bladeplayer: Have you not read the OP ?

Against a field of players with much higher Handicaps, the chances are one of them will come in 'well under' more often than a very low Handicapper will.

 

[EZprophet]

To get to your current h/cap, you must have played far better than your h/cap many, many times and I dare say have probably won a few comps in the process. It just seems unfair to you now that other people who are now improving and reducing their h/caps are winning Stableford comps. They are only doing what you have probably done in the past.

If you don't like the format of Stableford, don't play it. Stick to medal off full h/cap, scratch comps or match play where you still "on average" have the advantage.

No I haven't and that is my point. I have never shot the course record at my course (which is 3 under 66, and it what I would have needed to shoot to win that comp and most of the others Ive played in) and while I have only been a member of my course for a few months I am yet to break par there. My most common scores are between 71-75 only shooting lower than 71 and higher than 75 a handful of times.

My point is that because my scores are closer to my handicap more often than the average higher handicapper, it means that I am a lot less likely to shoot a high points score necessary to compete in competitions.

Also its not stableford that I have a problem with, its full handicap competitions I have a problem with, due to the fact that I dont feel that they level the playing field well at all.

You're probably right when you say "if you don't like it, dont play it" and I probably will stop playing them, but I do wish that this wasnt the case, and Im sure that a lot of other players feel the same way.

Surely we should be looking for solutions to this so that more people want to play in all of their clubs competitions and not just the ones they feel like they have an advantage in?

 

[bladeplayer]

bladeplayer: Have you not read the OP ?

Against a field of players with much higher Handicaps, the chances are one of them will come in 'well under' more often than a very low Handicapper will.

i was mainly commenting on the post i replyd to,it said that lower handicaps should accept that the odds are stacked against them? thats not fair to have to accept that is it , we should all have equal chance. im agreeing with you on this issue man..

 

[viscount17]

bladeplayer: Have you not read the OP ?

Against a field of players with much higher Handicaps, the chances are one of them will come in 'well under' more often than a very low Handicapper will.

but in head-to-head comps the lower handicapper is more likely to win. so pick your battles?

I've seen it written that there is an inbuilt bias in both CONGU and USGA handicapping systems, by about the same margin - of course no-one will ever accept (or admit) to being on the advantaged side of the divide.

 

[Down_The_Middle]

Thats what my golf was like when I first started playing. Got a H/C of 28 at the time. Took me ages to play to it.Then when I did start playing to quite often came in with 40+ points.For a good couple of years I was hardly out of the top 5 in my division. Now my H/C (10) has caught up with my game its been a while since I finished top 5. Plus also play in Division 1. My game is now more consistent

 

[MashieNiblick]

Without getting into the argument about whether the handicap system is fair or unfair I have always thought that for all the major comps at club level there should be 2 prizes and trophies. One for the best scratch/gross score and a slightly smaller replica for the best h/c score. That would reflect the true nature of golf - the lowest score wins. It would also encourage people to get better whilst giving everyone something to play for.

 

[Imurg]

Do away with handicaps and you destroy 95% of the field's chance of winning anything.

What's a handicap for? Levelling the playing field - ok it's not perfect but it's what we've got.
I can see how it must be a pain for the very low handicappers to lose to a 20 something having a good day but when you get that low you should possibly be thinking about playing Opens and other events rather than the Monthly Medal - that is if you want to win. IF you're happy knocking it about, getting handicap even lower and maybe winning something on the way then you carry on.
Yes it's good to win - I like winning. But my reason for paying golf - apart from the enjoyment - is to get lower than the 8.3 I'm currently on. Winning's a by-product of playing well.

 

[doubletripledouble]

What is the answer? 3/4 1/2?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

We have divisions for stableford and medals 0-12, 13-20 and 20+ and so the low guys can have a decent score and win their division and not worry about a higher guy having a good day nad posting a better nett figure.

A lot of our pairs events are 3/4 handicap and limited to a maximum of 18 and so a lot of these higher guys are at a disadvantage straight away and it tends to make for a level playing field. The only time it does become an issue is in one off honour events where it is best nett score/points wins. Even then though it is pretty rare for a 20+ guy to win these and usually the winner is a 9-18 guy on average. What's the answer though. You can't penalise higher handicappers just because that is their standard and every dog does have its day. If he comes in with a good day then fair play

 

[walesandproud]

I have to agree with Imurg (must be a Rush thing). Whether you agree with handicaps or not is a big issue, but it does allow us all to play together. If you go for 3/4 handicap then all that does is give people lower handicaps. I wont bore you with the stats from Congu, but at my club last year, presentation night was a precession of the same 2 players winning 80% of the main prizes, all played of full handicaps, they both play off 4

 

[jammag]

I agree with the original post that the handicap system is probably a little unfair especially stableford on the low handicappers as it is unlikely they will blob a hole.

As a fairly high handicapper (23) I have played fairly well in just knock about rounds shooting 87 and 89 in past couple of weeks par is 71. The annoying thing for me is that players cant really hand in more cards and say look im playing well can I get my handicap down. Because trust me anyone up there wants to get there handicap down.

Only way you could possibly keep a complete up to date handicap is every player that goes out has to hand in the card every round. This would mean a lot more work but anyone even on a general round who shoots low could get there handicap down and if you have a mare of a round it will be adjusted accordingly.

For this to work you would have a sign in booth at the pro shop where they give you a card and then if you dont return it then you go up.