What is a fair suspension ?

[hombre_paulo]

Sounds like a costly lesson but tells you a lot about the attitude of the committee. Does that fit with the kind of club you want to be part of?
Taking your situation at face value it certainly sounds very old boys style - not something I would wish to be part of so would probably leave, but would make use of the course until they booted me properly, just to wind em up a bit.

 

[Neil Grice]

I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble,

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....

Indeed I do. It is not their club it is ours. Have never had much to do with the committee ( although I always vote when members stand for election.) Have zero interest in the social side other than a beer after a round. My mates plat there and I like 2 courses and its close to my house/business. Why should I be forced out? Perhaps if I win some of the committee members may find it uncomfortable to show their face.

 

[Orikoru]

Indeed I do. It is not their club it is ours. Have never had much to do with the committee ( although I always vote when members stand for election.) Have zero interest in the social side other than a beer after a round. My mates plat there and I like 2 courses and its close to my house/business. Why should I be forced out? Perhaps if I win some of the committee members may find it uncomfortable to show their face.

 

[robinthehood]

The OP's club

I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble,

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....

I think you're being bit melodramatic there about the floodgates, but if clubs had done more for their members post Lockdown I doubt we'd be in this position.
.... as for the OP good on him, give people a little bit of authority and some find it hard not to abuse it so I applaud his stance.

 

[GB72]

I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble,

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....

Not sure that there is the need for a lawyer here. It is going to be a small claims case, non provision of services paid for. Small claims are geared towards people not being represented and, in fact, have no facility to allow the reclaiming of legal fees, you instruct a lawyer then you pay but you are not going to get stung for both side's costs. Basically pay your court fee, plead your case and see what the judge says.

That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.

This

 

[Neilds]

Not sure that there is the need for a lawyer here. It is going to be a small claims case, non provision of services paid for. Small claims are geared towards people not being represented and, in fact, have no facility to allow the reclaiming of legal fees, you instruct a lawyer then you pay but you are not going to get stung for both side's costs. Basically pay your court fee, plead your case and see what the judge says.

That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.

The OP has said it isn’t Small Claims Court so could get messy and expensive

 

[Neil Grice]

Not sure that there is the need for a lawyer here. It is going to be a small claims case, non provision of services paid for. Small claims are geared towards people not being represented and, in fact, have no facility to allow the reclaiming of legal fees, you instruct a lawyer then you pay but you are not going to get stung for both side's costs. Basically pay your court fee, plead your case and see what the judge says.

That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.

Actually the key driver here is not paying or not paying fees. It is about the right to info as a member and the right to see advice given to a committee but paid for by the members. It cannot be a small claims court because I am not actually claiming a loss or that money is owed I am claiming that they have illegally and penally suspended me, kangaroo court against natural justice and also that they cannot demand fees whilst suspended and that as members club I am as entitl;ed as anyone to see advice which tyhe club acts on. If i am right then we are moving into fraudelant action and matters wil get extremely serious but that is not my intention.

See traminator's post #66

From our club's Rules and Regs.

15.9 A suspended member (including a member whose handicap has been suspended) shall be excluded from the Club for the duration of the suspension and cease to have any of the privileges of membership. These include the right to vote at an EGM of the Club, the right to be nominated for or hold office while being suspended but he shall remain liable to pay all subscriptions, levies and other monies due from him.

I suspect that many members do not read their clubs Rules and Regs until they are affected by them.

Our rules and constitution make absolutely no reference to what the suspension entails and nothing about continuing to pay.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Indeed I do. It is not their club it is ours. Have never had much to do with the committee ( although I always vote when members stand for election.) Have zero interest in the social side other than a beer after a round. My mates plat there and I like 2 courses and its close to my house/business. Why should I be forced out? Perhaps if I win some of the committee members may find it uncomfortable to show their face.

How do the other members of the club feel about the issue you are taking to court? Is this a one man crusade, a small group of you, or are your feelings representative of a good number of members?

Depending on where you sit on that scale will have a big impact on whether returning to the club is realistic. I'd think winning a prerequisite for being able to return, but even then, if it's a one man crusade, I'm not sure the other members are going to be particularly chuffed about the cost and hassle that the club will go through as a consequence.

Also, if it's a private members club, are they obligated to continue your membership? Continuing to be a member might not be within your control.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd just suggest that, as in life in general, I always advise against exacting retribution when nothing much more than self-satisfaction is to be gained. I have found that in circumstances such as those outlined by the OP, it is better to accept the judgement of others even although you may feel they are wrong and any penalty applied is harsh and unmerited. When I have done that and accepted that I cannot change the way others think, and accepted that I cannot change what they have said or done - I find that I can walk away from the situation with a completely clear conscience.

Were I to exact retribution or take other action, then I risk feelings of concern and potentially guilt building up around what I did; and these feelings of guilt will lead me to feeling huge resentment against the individuals or whoever....and such feelings are corrosive to my peace of mind - and that loss of peace of mind will ripple out and impact those closest to me. And so protecting my peace of mind is, to me, much more important than any short-term satisfaction I might get from any retribution.

It's easy to say. It's not easy to do. But in my experience it is the right thing to do.

 

[MrC]

i am definitely a first time offender. After 4 years at the club

In that case it seems harsh. I would be asking for what other suspensions have been issued in the last 5 years and for what (they are unlikely to give you a name but they can say Player A 3 months inappropriate language to a committee member)

 

[Orikoru]

I'd just suggest that, as in life in general, I always advise against exacting retribution when nothing much more than self-satisfaction is to be gained. I have found that in circumstances such as those outlined by the OP, it is better to accept the judgement of others even although you may feel they are wrong and any penalty applied is harsh and unmerited. When I have done that and accepted that I cannot change the way others think, and accepted that I cannot change what they have said or done - I find that I can walk away from the situation with a completely clear conscience.

Were I to exact retribution or take other action, then I risk feelings of concern and potentially guilt building up around what I did; and these feelings of guilt will lead me to feeling huge resentment against the individuals or whoever....and such feelings are corrosive to my peace of mind - and that loss of peace of mind will ripple out and impact those closest to me. And so protecting my peace of mind is, to me, much more important than any short-term satisfaction I might get from any retribution.

It's easy to say. It's not easy to do. But in my experience it is the right thing to do.

So you just let people walk all over you even if it puts you a few hundred pounds out of pocket?? That's not the 'right thing to do' in my book.

 

[robinthehood]

So you just let people walk all over you even if it puts you a few hundred pounds out of pocket?? That's not the 'right thing to do' in my book.

Yeah what a strange notion.

 

[GB72]

Actually the key driver here is not paying or not paying fees. It is about the right to info as a member and the right to see advice given to a committee but paid for by the members. It cannot be a small claims court because I am not actually claiming a loss or that money is owed I am claiming that they have illegally and penally suspended me, kangaroo court against natural justice and also that they cannot demand fees whilst suspended and that as members club I am as entitl;ed as anyone to see advice which tyhe club acts on. If i am right then we are moving into fraudelant action and matters wil get extremely serious but that is not my intention.

Our rules and constitution make absolutely no reference to what the suspension entails and nothing about continuing to pay.

Then I think that you may have an issue. I had assumed a pure financial claim based on the charges made for the lockdown period. You are then looking at whether the committee has acted outside of the constitution that the club has put in place for it to run under, moving on to matters of who instructed a legal firm and for what purpose, whether the information and advice is protected by privilege and whether the actions are within in the interests of the club and finally you are looking at a civil action for purported fraud. If you are planning on going down that route, put away a high 5 or 6 figure sum, plan for this to take several years, during which time I suspect that the club will at least suspend your membership, be prepared for national press coverage and, I suspect, win or lose, do not expect to be welcome at any club locally.

Not saying that I agree with any of the above but, from a legal perspective, that is how I can see matters panning out and I do not feel that this is an over the top expectation. Before you do anything, I would recommend that you have a solicitor plough through the clubs rules, regulations and constitution with a fine tooth comb as if there is there is no breach or no case of acting ultra vires then there is no case. I would put aside circa £2000.00 just to cover the legal fees for that element then move on from there. Oh, and be prepared for a counter claim for the use of language towards an official of the club as contained in your email as that in itself could be grounds for dismissal.

 

[Slab]

Is it possible it might not even be as straightforward as a win or lose for either side

Depending on what particular act/incident the member was suspended for the suspension itself might be totally warranted, even if its then found as part of a suspension they are/are not liable for fees

Private exchange or not if I were on the receiving end of someone swearing at me and calling me a liar in my capacity as a committee member (which is an assumption by me to explain the OP saying; ‘suggesting he hadn’t told the truth using colourful language’) It’d then come down to:

1. If I was also swearing/insulting etc then its all fair, can't really suspend the bloke
2. If I wasn’t swearing/insulting then a 3 month (mostly off season) suspension isn’t OTT

Regardless of whether a document exists people can’t just say/do what they like and not expect repercussions if they choose to fling insults around. Fortunately as it was by email it’ll be easy to see if it’s just the OP (which he's admitted to) or if both are at fault

 

[GB72]

So you just let people walk all over you even if it puts you a few hundred pounds out of pocket?? That's not the 'right thing to do' in my book.

As per my post above, you are not looking at at a few hundred pounds. First meeting with a solicitor will be a couple of hours at £250 plus an hour for someone with decent experience. 3 or 4 hours for the solicitor to read through the club rules and constitution, maybe another hour checking the facts of the case against the rules. Would suggest that you will be a couple of thousand pounds into this before the matter has even really started. Once you get to court, and I suspect that this will need advice of council, the bills really rack up to the tune of thousands of pounds a day. Plus court time is hard to come by at the moment, you are probably looking at 2022 before you get a court date.

 

[CountLippe]

A I understand it a golf club is a legal person. A lot of members clubs are run by a committee of volunteers who do not have the skills/experience in complying with all applicable laws and codes.
There are situations whereby these are ignored / avoided by a committee who believe they are acting 'for the greater good' of the club, which a court would regard as unlawful.
They are leaving themselves open to considerable damages.
At my club, a friend of mine was the club solicitor, (for which his membership fees we waived in lieu of legal advice which may be required). He was consulted on only a handful of occasions over 10 years and his advice was usually ignored. I do worry.

 

[Ethan]

I think the point that some are making, and with which I agree, is that it is perfectly possible to win a legal case and be morally in the right, but in doing to so alienate yourself at the club to the extent it is no longer pleasant to be a member. It sounds like the President and club officials have a rather inflated idea of their power, but unfortunately they are where they are and unlikely to be booted out even if they lose a case. They might also put out the word to other local clubs.

So the choice may be between trying to find some sort of reconciliation where both sides give a bit or fighting the case and likely leaving the club.

 

[Jacko_G]

This thread is GOLD.

This will be my daily dose of popcorn for a while yet. A good few Perry Mason's here.

 

[robinthehood]

I think the point that some are making, and with which I agree, is that it is perfectly possible to win a legal case and be morally in the right, but in doing to so alienate yourself at the club to the extent it is no longer pleasant to be a member. It sounds like the President and club officials have a rather inflated idea of their power, but unfortunately they are where they are and unlikely to be booted out even if they lose a case. They might also put out the word to other local clubs.

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Post no longer makes sense