Went to a Titleist Thursday iron fitting - Results and feedback.

[xreyuk]

Hi Guys,

I'm recently getting back into the game after about a 9 year lay off. When I stopped playing golf, I was 17 years old and a 12 handicapper, but on a downward trend, regularly playing my local course to 6-10 handicap (Hillside Golf Club, next to Royal Birkdale).

Since getting back into the game, I've had a couple of ball lessons, and my ball striking is really good in the lessons, but not so great outside of it (either at the range or on the course). I know my problems, but trying to work through them 1 or 2 at a time, rather than trying to correct every little thing at once. Main problem being I've lost around 1-1/2 clubs distance.

Started off hitting a few with my 7i, 33 degrees loft, standard shaft length, swing speed 86mph, ball speed 107mph. Hit it well, carry was 150-156 yards average (I believe it should be higher), very consistent distance, however slightly high spin (7,400RPM). Even though the Trackman said my launch angle was pretty good, my ball flight is not very penetrating, so without wind it goes a decent distance, but as soon as it's into a slight wind, the high ball flight, combined with the backspin means I lose a lot of distance compared to someone else in the same wind.

He then did the loft and lie assessment with an AP2 that was half an inch short (I'm only 5'6) and had a stiff shaft., I creamed it, perfect, repeatedly.

Anyway he turned the trackman back on, and setup the AP2 with a stiff shaft, 1/2 an inch short. I hit a few dodgy, but when I hit them well, they went exactly the same sort distance as my current club. Swing speed and ball speed were slightly lower, but for the most part they went the same distance, which I expected, seeing as an AP2 is lofted at 34 degrees.

We tried numerous stiff and regular shafts, but no matter what shaft he put in, the distances never changed, only the spin rate, which tended to be lower with a stiff shaft, but the spin was still a bit too high for the club.

He then asked me to try an AP1, as he thought I'd have more luck. I expected more distance out of this as it's lofted at 31 degrees. Again tried numerous stiff and regular shafts, all 1/2 inch short, but still had exactly the same outcome.

The only thing that was showing on the trackman was that my dynamic loft was poor, he said around 21 degrees was ideal for a 7i, and I was up more near 29-30. My swing path was very slightly out to in, but he said it was very minor, but that also means a slightly open club face at impact.

Full stats

Swing speed: 85/86mph
Ball speed: 102-107mph
Dynamicloft: 29-30 degrees
AoA: -4/4.1 degrees.

My main question is, what could it be about the swing that is causing the same outcome, no matter the shaft, no matter the loft of the club?

TLDR - Hit my clubs, hit more modern clubs, with one with jacked lofts, all same distance, no matter the shaft. Why?

 

[davemc1]

You would like to think the guys fitting you for clubs are also giving you tips on what's going on. Not only a fitting but a lesson also, so if he didn't obviously help, next step (or even previous step) is to have a few of them lessons you where asking about.

Without posting a video up I'm guessing it's pretty tough to diagnose your faults :thup:

 

[bobmac]

Where is the ball positioned in your stance in relation to the middle?

 

[duncan mackie]

"The only thing that was showing on the trackman was that my dynamic loft was poor, he said around 21 degrees was ideal for a 7i, and I was up more near 29-30. My swing path was very slightly out to in, but he said it was very minor, but that also means a slightly open club face at impact."
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ting-Results-and-feedback#dwwvyXVWZzYm3zYx.99

This would seem to represent an important 'what', need to see the swing to be able to comment on the why (although many others are better able to do that)

 

[the_coach]

all stuff like grip hold - set-up - alignments & ball position will be playing into this to some extent even before you get to swing motion

if you take a more unusual maybes overall viewpoint of the possible issue from the opposite end of the spectrum of the by starting to look at results from the elite player & pga tour pro then that will trow up some interesting comparisons

you'd get an approx average with an 8i of swing speed 87 mph ball speed 115 mph carry distance 160 yards
average swing speed increase through the irons is about +2mph - so 7i @ 89/90mph ball speed 120 mph & the approx gap in carry distance goes up(or down) by around 12 yards each club so average 7i carry distance is 172 yards

average AoA for 7i is around -4.3 & average spin rate is around 7000 - 7100 rpm & average 7i SF around 1.33/1.34 - & the 7i loft maybes around 34º on average

with a game improvement design iron so designed with lower static loft for lower spin rate but maintaining launch angle a 7i here would be generating off of a good strike a much lower spin rate maybes average would be more around 5000 rpm

so can kinda extrapolate some & draw some observations over the numbers you experienced
one # that kinda stands out is ball speed which at 107 mph with 86 mph swing speed that number is a tad low so efficiency of strike isn't quite where it needs to be

that says there's something goin on at strike - so although maybes the experience of the strike is a reasonable good one - the quality of the strike is a bunch off

so it's just where on the club face angle most likely definitely with regard to where on the vertical axis of the face (& also to a certain extent where on the horizontal axis) that strike location is
along with that probably the relationship of face angle to path control of not just the feel of where the club head is but where the face is & what angle on primary the vertical axis is being presented at strike - tell tale number here being the dynamic loft being presented - so optimum strike 'compression' of the ball is a tad off

say strike is good at lessons but is that from LM data? so from SF #'s & AoA plus dynamic loft & ball speed LA & face to path #'s - or is the strike just being assessed visually through ball flight alone ?

would get a roll of impact tape - or a can of foot or dry shampoo spray to coat the face - to start really looking where strike is paying particular attention to around what groove on the face angle the middle of the ball is being impacted at - plus how far left/right of horizontal center it is - if strike is a bunch higher on the face then you've got to start looking at the angle of delivery of the shaft into impact as well as the other numbers

in general shafts are for fine tuning they change stuff but fairly small range of amounts in terms of spin rate - folks who deliver fairly consistent impact conditions even if those are not quite optimum won't find the range of numbers to be mega substantial - say if those impact conditions numbers give a fairly constant -AoA # with an iron & a fairly constant dynamic loft number with a strike a tad higher on the face angle than would be optimum they will still get very similar outcomes in terms of spin rate & ball speed & carry distance

in essence the issue is really about club face angle delivery conditions & strike quality - & what you've been asked to work on through lessons should give some clues as to what the issues in the swing motion are to be able to improve

often times see issues like this which is about at the sharp end where in the swing arc 'release' is starting to happen often times it's occurring too near the trail thigh

so although the 'experience' of strike in lessons & on the range is a pretty good one it's not yet quite where it really needs to be

 

[the_coach]

often times folks speak to how shaft flex affects shot results as regards swing speed & spin rate so amongst other stuff carry distance

& it can/does to some extent but the bigger differences are not always where folks expect - in swing speed/spin rate/distance

how it effects tends to be very player specific - which is for sure why folks should try to get a good fitter

biggest issues with iron shafts often times see is not around vast differences in either club head speed or spin or distance - sure these numbers change but generally not by a real big number range

but tends to effect more around dispersion #'s as folks find different shafts affect the ability to control the face to path #'s & strike locations - so that's more in how the different shafts 'release' the club head into impact with their particular swing motions

[video=youtube;acQRPba40Ww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acQRPba40Ww[/video]

 

[xreyuk]

You would like to think the guys fitting you for clubs are also giving you tips on what's going on. Not only a fitting but a lesson also, so if he didn't obviously help, next step (or even previous step) is to have a few of them lessons you where asking about.

Without posting a video up I'm guessing it's pretty tough to diagnose your faults :thup:

Yeah, I get the impression he didn't really know what he was doing, but I also get the impression that he thought like me, and it didn't really matter what irons were in my hand, I have a swing fault that needs sorting before getting fitted. It's his jobs to sell clubs though, so I can imagine why he said that!

I'll try and get a video up, but looks like I'm going to have to have a lesson, and ideally find a coach with cameras so I can see what's going on. The guys near me just use an iPad and it's too hard to see what's wrong because it can't record at a high enough frame rate.

Where is the ball positioned in your stance in relation to the middle?

For 8i/7i, middle.

"The only thing that was showing on the trackman was that my dynamic loft was poor, he said around 21 degrees was ideal for a 7i, and I was up more near 29-30. My swing path was very slightly out to in, but he said it was very minor, but that also means a slightly open club face at impact."
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ting-Results-and-feedback#dwwvyXVWZzYm3zYx.99

This would seem to represent an important 'what', need to see the swing to be able to comment on the why (although many others are better able to do that)

Thanks, I'll have a read through that.

Very long and information post.

Thanks for all of the info, I'll look through it all completely when I get home. However the dry shampoo idea is a great idea, so might have a go at that down the range.

 

[Fish]

My Titleist fitter (Matt) who I had a fitting with only the other week was very informative and gave me some pointers and advice when I started to throw some herman tanks into my fitting at the Belfry.

After those pointers along with multiple changes with various shafts and what became far more noticeable, cranking the club 2* upright, I was hitting bullseyes out of the tape all the time. Without that 2* upright I was toeing the club so fittings aren't just about shafts.

Ok I was still slightly fading the ball slightly and when I over emphasised or tried to correct that which then turned them into a hook, he again gave me some pointers on my swing path which straightened me up quickly.

My stats from my previous RSi TP's to my new AP2's were a staggering improvement in all areas, I've just got to get off the tee better now because as soon as I can get onto my irons I'm fine, but the top of my bag has become scary so I'm looking to have another Titleist fitting for the driver now as I think I've changed so much since my SLDR with a cut down shaft was fitted some 4yrs ago!