Water hazzard

[heronsghyll]

Dear forum members,

Some clarity please?

Issue:-

I hit my tee shot into a lateral water hazzard, identified by red stakes. It is a stream running the length of the fairway.

From the tee it is impossible to see exactly where it went in, 200 yards+ from the tee.

When we approach we cannot see/find the ball in the hazzard.

It definitely went in the hazzard so if my colleagues agree where it went in, can I drop a ball in the correct place as if we had found it for a penalty and play on?

Or do I have to go back and play another from the tee?

Your thoughts and definition of the correct action to be taken would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[rulefan]

Providing you know or are virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard, then you may drop a ball under the procedure in rule 26-1a, b or c

Being virtually certain needs very strong evidence. If there is any possibility that the ball may be elsewhere where it may not be readily seen (in the light rough, in a bush etc), then you cannot claim virtually certainty.

See this Decision for more detail:

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26,d26-1-1

 

[Foxholer]

If you saw it go into the LWH, but cannot be certain exactly whereabouts it went in, then that qualifies for K/VC. You just have to agree where it was most likely to have entered the hazard.

Remember that finding the ball doesn't mean that it (last) entered into the hazard at the nearest boundary either! That especially applies where the stream is flowing (possibly the case for you) or the bed of the hazard contains rocks along which the ball can bounce quite a long way!

 

[IanM]

Played with someone 2 weeks ago who tried to tell me I had to find the ball in a LWH! I asked him if he was sure it went in.... he said he was...

 

[rulefan]

A player hits his ball towards a water hazard and when he gets there, starts looking round for it. He then says it must be in the WH. Ask him why, if it is in the WH, he was looking for it outside the WH.

 

[IanM]

Good point.... this chap wanted me to find the ball in the hazard....

 

[chrisd]

A player hits his ball towards a water hazard and when he gets there, starts looking round for it. He then says it must be in the WH. Ask him why, if it is in the WH, he was looking for it outside the WH.

I would think that even if he was claiming VC it still would be correct to have a cursory look to double check

 

[rosecott]

I would think that even if he was claiming VC it still would be correct to have a cursory look to double check

Aah! The eternally optimistic golfer.

 

[chrisd]

Aah! The eternally optimistic golfer.

Optimistic enough not to play a provisional!

 

[hovis]

am i correct in saying that if your ball enters a wh and you witness it bobble down the stream and eventually oob then the ball has infact gone oob?

 

[rosecott]

Best advice is not to watch.

 

[rulefan]

am i correct in saying that if your ball enters a wh and you witness it bobble down the stream and eventually oob then the ball has infact gone oob?

Yes

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26,d26-1-7

 

[atticusfinch]

where it was most likely to have entered the hazard.

Slight correction: where it most likely last crossed the margin of the hazard.

 

[atticusfinch]

I would think that even if he was claiming VC it still would be correct to have a cursory look to double check

Double check for what? If you double check because you want to make sure it might not be in the WH then you don't have VC.

 

[Region3]

Double check for what? If you double check because you want to make sure it might not be in the WH then you don't have VC.

There are plenty of examples where you might not be able to see a ball from 200 yards away but once you're in the area would be unmissable if it were there.

 

[atticusfinch]

There are plenty of examples where you might not be able to see a ball from 200 yards away but once you're in the area would be unmissable if it were there.

I agree, but let's break it down. You walk from the tee to where you think the ball may be. You get there and say, "I'm not sure where it is so I will look around. You don't find it. What evidence do you then have that establishes it is in the water with 98% certainty? Not finding it is not evidence of where it is.

The rule of thumb rulefan mentioned is "could it be anywhere else?" By looking "anywhere else" you confirm that you are not certain it is in the water. Thus, no VC.

 

[chrisd]

We have a stream running down the side of a hole that, if a ball is hit in that direction it is VC that the ball will trundle into the hazard and can be seen for its journey up until the last few feet where the bank drops to the water. It is rare that anyone plays a provisional ball but it is unlikely due to the nature of the water in the stream that the ball will be found once it ha gone in. Most players have a look just to see that their ball didn't just come up short as its more often a driver off the tee and whilst it's clear the ball is heading straight for the hazard the ball could just stop a yard or two short. I would have thought that VC does allow a very very small doubt and that a player would be right to spend a minute just be VC it didn't stop a few inches from the hazard?

 

[bobmac]

I agree, but let's break it down. You walk from the tee to where you think the ball may be. You get there and say, "I'm not sure where it is so I will look around. You don't find it. What evidence do you then have that establishes it is in the water with 98% certainty? Not finding it is not evidence of where it is.

The rule of thumb rulefan mentioned is "could it be anywhere else?" By looking "anywhere else" you confirm that you are not certain it is in the water. Thus, no VC.

You don't have to be certain, only virtually certain
Meaning of ''virtually'' in the English dictionary is .........ALMOST, NEARLY.


[h=1][/h]

 

[rulefan]

You don't have to be certain, only virtually certain
Meaning of ''virtually'' in the English dictionary is .........ALMOST, NEARLY.

You cannot just resort the the dictionary. The Rules of Golf do not necessarily interpret words as per a dictionary.
Rules Schools suggest a very high standard - 99% sure.
See this Decision http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26,d26-1-1

 

[bobmac]

You cannot just resort the the dictionary. The Rules of Golf do not necessarily interpret words as per a dictionary.
Rules Schools suggest a very high standard - 99% sure.
See this Decision http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26,d26-1-1

So I should ignore the English Oxford Dictionary when looking for the meaning of a phrase and look to an American interpretation instead?