Water Filled Bunkers - Again!

[mikejohnchapman]

If a ball goes into a water filled bunker and there is nowhere to drop no nearer the hole, you have to take a penalty drop outside the bunker.

Under 2019 rules is this a 1 shot or 2 shot penalty and why?

 

[Deleted member 15717]

16.1c is the new rule. 1 shot penalty for dropping outside the bunker if required due to abnormal ground conditions

 

[duncan mackie]

As Wabinez posted, and confirmed in post #11 of your previous thread.

 

[rulefan]

If a ball goes into a water filled bunker and there is nowhere to drop no nearer the hole, you have to take a penalty drop outside the bunker.

Under 2019 rules is this a 1 shot or 2 shot penalty and why?

The 2 stroke penalty would be for taking unplayable relief 'back on a line' outside a bunker (R 19.2b)

 

[thegoldenbear]

You don't have to take the 1 shot penalty relief in a water filled bunker, you can take Maximum Available relief still in the bunker, ie at a point where the water may be more shallow and therefore playable, and as long as that in not nearer the hole and within the bunker it would be free relief.

The difference between the two reliefs is that the one with a 1 shot penalty is caused by an Abnormal Ground Condition and can therefore only apply when that condition affects your lie or stance, whereas the other is a new optional relief which can be taken anytime regardless of the ground conditions and this is therefore 2 shots.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Thanks everyone - been really struggling with this problem recently.

 

[Foxholer]

Thanks everyone - been really struggling with this problem recently.

Time you got your club to mark those affected as GUR then. It's no criticism of the course, but does make for 'interesting'- aka v. frustrating! - results unless some sort of ruling is made. If that doesn't happen, then I'd be a strong critic of those charged with making such rulings.

 

[jim8flog]

Time you got your club to mark those affected as GUR then. It's no criticism of the course, but does make for 'interesting'- aka v. frustrating! - results unless some sort of ruling is made. If that doesn't happen, then I'd be a strong critic of those charged with making such rulings.

Who do you expect to go round a course, at say 7 in the morning, to inspect all the bunkers and put in GUR signs? The greenstaff at our club would be too busy doing course prep work and should they even be making decisions re the rules? Does your club even have enough GUR signs? Most clubs will have well over 50 bunkers.

My view is that there is nothing wrong with declaring all bunkers GUR if it is felt that it is needed so long as the organisers remember to make it a non qualifying comp for handicap purposes.

 

[Homer]

Who do you expect to go round a course, at say 7 in the morning, to inspect all the bunkers and put in GUR signs? The greenstaff at our club would be too busy doing course prep work and should they even be making decisions re the rules? Does your club even have enough GUR signs? Most clubs will have well over 50 bunkers.

My view is that there is nothing wrong with declaring all bunkers GUR if it is felt that it is needed so long as the organisers remember to make it a non qualifying comp for handicap purposes.

If there are 50 bunkers as GUR then should the course even be in a fit state to be open?!

 

[rulefan]

Who do you expect to go round a course, at say 7 in the morning, to inspect all the bunkers and put in GUR signs? The greenstaff at our club would be too busy doing course prep work and should they even be making decisions re the rules? Does your club even have enough GUR signs? Most clubs will have well over 50 bunkers.

My view is that there is nothing wrong with declaring all bunkers GUR if it is felt that it is needed so long as the organisers remember to make it a non qualifying comp for handicap purposes.

Identifying unplayable bunkers should be part of normal course preparation. The greenstaff should have been given instruction on what qualifies. You don't need signs: we have small blue flags which are just stuck in the bunker. The Local Rule (expressly permitted by the R&A) simply says that bunkers with a blue flag are GUR (Play prohibited).
If the club is in England they will count as qualifiers if less than 50% are affected. To the best of my knowledge the other home unions have not publicly specified a number.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I know plenty of folks who would take a one shot penalty to drop out of a bunker under an Abnormal Ground Conditions ruling - so what prevents abuse of that ruling.

 

[Foxholer]

Who do you expect to go round a course, at say 7 in the morning, to inspect all the bunkers and put in GUR signs? The greenstaff at our club would be too busy doing course prep work and should they even be making decisions re the rules? Does your club even have enough GUR signs? Most clubs will have well over 50 bunkers.

My view is that there is nothing wrong with declaring all bunkers GUR if it is felt that it is needed so long as the organisers remember to make it a non qualifying comp for handicap purposes.

Surely 'course prep work' at your place includes some sort of check on (and maybe even prep to) bunkers! It certainly does at courses I've been associated with!

Green staff already make rules related decisions (other areas of GUR for example).

 

[2blue]

Surely 'course prep work' at your place includes some sort of check on (and maybe even prep to) bunkers! It certainly does at courses I've been associated with!

Green staff already make rules related decisions (other areas of GUR for example).

Yep... I agree... if its a serious Club... sadly ours isn't

 

[rulefan]

I know plenty of folks who would take a one shot penalty to drop out of a bunker under an Abnormal Ground Conditions ruling - so what prevents abuse of that ruling.

I'm not sure I understand your point. If it costs a penalty how would they abuse it?

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Abnormal ground conditions are fairly well stated in the rules too...so if they don’t apply, they can’t be abused. Playing partners should be telling them that they can’t.

If they’re taking an unplayable lie and want to drop outside the bunker then fine....but that’s a 2 shot penalty. Not going to win an awful lot at that point though

 

[jim8flog]

Identifying unplayable bunkers should be part of normal course preparation.

This surely depends on the course staff set up and their allocated jobs on a daily basis.
Fine if you are a club with exceptional finances and with no real constraints on greenstaff budget. Where I play (from memory) work on bunkers is limited to about 3 times a week for example. We have two courses to be maintained, grass that seems grow about 2" in a day and only 6-8 greenstaff one of whom only does machinery maintenance.

 

[rulefan]

This surely depends on the course staff set up and their allocated jobs on a daily basis.
Fine if you are a club with exceptional finances and with no real constraints on greenstaff budget. Where I play (from memory) work on bunkers is limited to about 3 times a week for example. We have two courses to be maintained, grass that seems grow about 2" in a day and only 6-8 greenstaff one of whom only does machinery maintenance.

Thery don't need to do any work. If there has been heavy rain (most greensheds have a rain gauge outside somewhere (if they haven't they should), a quick scoot round the course (preferably with some blue flags) is all that is deeded to spot the duff ones. Further, as most bunkers are associated with greens, they can be identified when preparing them (first thing every morning I assume).
If all that is a problem, they must know which are the vulnerable ones and can (after rain) check them quickly.

 

[jim8flog]

Further, as most bunkers are associated with greens, they can be identified when preparing them (first thing every morning I assume).
.

As already said our workstaff schedule for bunkers is about 3 times a week. Considering they only work 5 days a week for general maintenance that is a good rate of work. Those that work on a Saturday and Sunday only do greens cutting and tee placement for what ever is going on over the weekend.

We had a couple of years when the club had major losses and cutting down on greenstaff costs was a major part of the restructure to get our finances back on track.

 

[rulefan]

I meant they could check greenside bunkers when preparing the greens. They don't have to do anything except possibly put a blue flag in a few of them.

I speak from experience as a part time green keeper after I retired.