Virtually Certain - some maths

[palindromicbob]

But a drop from a hazard where you've no certainty that your ball went in is only 2

The way I read it is that the local rule allow to save time because the nature of the hazard makes it difficult to ascertain if the ball is in the hazard and it meets the requirements to allow the local rule.

By playing the provisional (which you can because you are unsure) that is your 3rd stroke (taken as if you were VC or knew that the ball was in the hazard). This then allows you go forward and search. If you fail to find your ball anywhere then you continue with the provisional taking your 4th stroke. This saves time because normally in this situation you would still have to abandon the provision and then return and replay the shot under S&D.

If you find your ball in the hazard you continue with your provisional taking your 4th stroke, saving the time of having to return and play another, or choose to try and play it again .

If you find your ball has gone through the reeds and is found outside the hazard then you continue with the original as if the provisional was never hit.

The one thing that this local rule adds is the option to possibily move forward and play the provisional from a dropped area closer to the hazard and flips the known or virtually certain requirement so that in the situation where you have lost your original and are unsure it is in the hazard then it is basically treated as if it were lost in the hazard where the rules normally don't allow for that assumption to be made.

 

[chrisd]

The way I read it is that the local rule allow to save time because the nature of the hazard makes it difficult to ascertain if the ball is in the hazard and it meets the requirements to allow the local rule.

By playing the provisional (which you can because you are unsure) that is your 3rd stroke (taken as if you were VC or knew that the ball was in the hazard). This then allows you go forward and search. If you fail to find your ball anywhere then you continue with the provisional taking your 4th stroke. This saves time because normally in this situation you would still have to abandon the provision and then return and replay the shot under S&D.

If you find your ball in the hazard you continue with your provisional taking your 4th stroke, saving the time of having to return and play another, or choose to try and play it again .

If you find your ball has gone through the reeds and is found outside the hazard then you continue with the original as if the provisional was never hit.

The one thing that this local rule adds is the option to possibily move forward and play the provisional from a dropped area closer to the hazard and flips the known or virtually certain requirement so that in the situation where you have lost your original and are unsure it is in the hazard then it is basically treated as if it were lost in the hazard where the rules normally don't allow for that assumption to be made.

I don't disagree with the playing of a provisional, indeed you should do, and certainly with no such local rule at my club it would save a walk back to the tee for a ball not found

But, unless I am misreading Delc's local rule it is saying you can/must play a provisional if in doubt whether the ball is in the hazard but that if you don't find your original ball then you play the provisional as if it were known to be in the hazard ie a one shot penalty (rule 26) so the next shot is 3, and not as we would do, without a local rule, as a provisional ie the next shot is 4

 

[duncan mackie]

The one thing that this local rule adds is the option to possibily move forward and play the provisional from a dropped area closer to the hazard and flips the known or virtually certain requirement so that in the situation where you have lost your original and are unsure it is in the hazard then it is basically treated as if it were lost in the hazard where the rules normally don't allow for that assumption to be made.

absolutely with the first part of your post ie once you walk round to the other side of the water hazard it will become clear whether your ball did or didn't go in so you are permitted to play provisionally under one of the 26-1 options until you find out.

not quite to the bit quoted above. the LR cannot in itself flip this, which is why the rules require that the area around the hazard is such that a ball not found will be in the hazard if that rule is in place.

the guidelines for the implementation of the LR are extremely clear about this, for exactly this reason.
"Permitting play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1 for a ball that may be in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) of such character that, if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard and it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play."
If the situation fails on this test then ruling becomes impossible.
On the 15th at Batchworth it's both unnecessary and inappropriate - in trying to permit a player to play a provisional from the tee such that it becomes his ball in play if he subsequently finds his ball in the water hazard you somehow bring the option of dropping under 26-1b in relation to a guessed position for a ball that could well be lost anywhere (about 160 yds up the hole).

If they believe the principle then the areas all around the water hazard should be maintained at fairway height (and you probably need to get rid of those large trees etc etc etc

 

[palindromicbob]

I don't disagree with the playing of a provisional, indeed you should do, and certainly with no such local rule at my club it would save a walk back to the tee for a ball not found

But, unless I am misreading Delc's local rule it is saying you can/must play a provisional if in doubt whether the ball is in the hazard but that if you don't find your original ball then you play the provisional as if it were known to be in the hazard ie a one shot penalty (rule 26) so the next shot is 3, and not as we would do, without a local rule, as a provisional ie the next shot is 4

The provisional is always subject to one stroke penalty if an original is defined as lost. The stroke made putting the provisional into play is the 3rd not the 2nd. If you then go up fail to find the original the provisional becomes the ball in play and the next stroke made at it is the 4th.

The only adjustment to the rules that this local rule allows is an option to put provisional into play while also using options b and c available under rule 26-1. That is a far back on a line where the ball crossed the hazard keeping that point in line iwth the hole or in the case of a lateral hazard 2-club lengths. Normally a provisional can only be played from the place the last stroke was made.


Thanksfully this isn't a common local rule.

I see what you are saying Duncan. Basically it is a rule that should be impemented in a situation where if the ball is not found then that basically means there is only one likely place for it to be and that is in the hazard. This fits in with the clarification of the meaning of known or virtually certain specfically this part.

However, "virtual certainty" also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.

 

[chrisd]

The provisional is always subject to one stroke penalty if an original is defined as lost. The stroke made putting the provisional into play is the 3rd not the 2nd. If you then go up fail to find the original the provisional becomes the ball in play and the next stroke made at it is the 4th.

The only adjustment to the rules that this local rule allows is an option to put provisional into play while also using options b and c available under rule 26-1. That is a far back on a line where the ball crossed the hazard keeping that point in line iwth the hole or in the case of a lateral hazard 2-club lengths. Normally a provisional can only be played from the place the last stroke was made.


Thanksfully this isn't a common local rule.

Apologies Bob, I was reading it like at my own place where its only from the tee that you'd not be certain or virtually certain, but it could of course be a second or third shot that it applies to. Even so, I still see no reason for a local rule as the members/players should follow the rules as they are written IMO

 

[williamalex1]

They have a similar rule at a Glasgow course that i won't name. When playing the 18th which is uphill and the landing area is out of site, we were told at an away club match play " if you hit your drive up the middle then cannot find it, you assume that the Neds have ran on and stole it, drop where you think your drive would have been no penalty.

 

[duncan mackie]

I see what you are saying Duncan. Basically it is a rule that should be implemented in a situation where if the ball is not found then that basically means there is only one likely place for it to be and that is in the hazard. This fits in with the clarification of the meaning of known or virtually certain ...

indeed - that combined with 'and if my ball is in the hazard then I would play another ball from here (26-1 a), or this side of the hazard (26-1 b), so I will do that provisionally now to save everyone time rather than walking all the way round the other side of it to check first'

all of which makes good sense, and only provides one small potential advantage in that a player who both hits his provisional ball 'badly' and finds his original ball in the hazard but only marginally playable, may choose to risk the playing of it knowing that the alternative is already 'doomed!'. A small price the RBs are prepared to pay for the right situations.