chrisd
Major Champion
But surely, no more fundamentaly wrong than hitting a sh**k from the middle of the fairway into the cabbage, not looking for your ball, and being able to and drop on the fairway again albeit fom not nearer the hole.
Using Stroke and Distance
- Thread starter SwingsitlikeHogan
- Start date
But surely, no more fundamentaly wrong than hitting a sh**k from the middle of the fairway into the cabbage, not looking for your ball, and being able to and drop on the fairway again albeit fom not nearer the hole.
bobmac
Major Champion
In your scenario, the ball could be lost so a redrop NOT NEARER THE HOLE.
In my example, the ball is lying perfectly but lifted and dropped 30 yards nearer the hole.
Not really the same I would say
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
The thing is I imagine few people have ever used the S&D option where they had a chance to play on. However it has to be an option and provided for in the Rules.
As Chris implies there are situations where it would be unfair if the option weren't available.
Imagine 2 players A and B with simple shots from the fairway. A hits an horrendous shot into a deep thicket or OOB and is able use the S&D option to replay. B playing from the same place hits a less bad shot into a playable lie but is faced with a much more difficult shot than he would be if he simply replayed under penalty (e.g behind a tree or short sided over water). Should B potentially suffer a more severe penalty than A?
I think the Rule is there to ensure both players have an equal choice in such cases.
As Chris implies there are situations where it would be unfair if the option weren't available.
Imagine 2 players A and B with simple shots from the fairway. A hits an horrendous shot into a deep thicket or OOB and is able use the S&D option to replay. B playing from the same place hits a less bad shot into a playable lie but is faced with a much more difficult shot than he would be if he simply replayed under penalty (e.g behind a tree or short sided over water). Should B potentially suffer a more severe penalty than A?
I think the Rule is there to ensure both players have an equal choice in such cases.
chrisd
Major Champion
That was my point Mashie which you state more eloquently than me. I would stress that this is the use of a rule that might occasionaly work in the players favour rather than against which would be the norm, although I dont think many would risk the difficult shot again, having cowed it up once, rather than play on from where they lie with the hope of saving the penalty shot.
bobmac
Major Champion
If player 1 has lost his ball in the thicket or is OOB, then off course he drops a ball
If player 2 finds his ball and it's playable, he should play it.
You forgot player 3 who's well struck shot was straight and true but one club short....in a bunker. As player 3 isn't very good at bunker shots, he can just drop another and play away.
But again, in all 3 situations, they are dropping the ball NOT NEARER THE HOLE
chrisd
Major Champion
Player 1 .. he has no other choice, but lets say it a 120 yard par 3 and he thins it 150 yards into the cabbage, he re tees nearer the hole than his ball finished
Player 2 .. one golfers "playable" is anothers "not playable" who decides? what if player 2 lands 30 yards from the green and fears that shot more than player 3 fears his bunker shot?
Player 3 .. if he hits his bunker shot 80 yards instead of the required 20 he can redrop in the bunker which would be nearer the hole than where his ball is
So, player 2 spends 20 minutes arguing with player 1 and 3 over whether the ball is playable and that, I guess, is why the rules always leaves that decision to the player and is a non arguable decision. There are other occasions where a player may play nearer the hole than he currently lies - what about drop zones?
bobmac
Major Champion
I'm not talking about the guy who hits it in the trees or cabbage and I know why the rule is there, I'm just giving my opinion on the OPs situation.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Well. As the rule says.
'At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance'
There is no mention of playability of the ball - so no decision to be made on whether it is playable or not, and so no discussion required with another other player. And also no mention of 'distance' from hole before and after a shot is played.
Interesting that on another question on the rules that I raised a while back (pitch marks on the fringe and on your line when you are playing onto the green - and you can't repair them even although it seems 'unfair' - or deer hoof print on green on players line of putt...!) I found an example of the situations where golf was 'never meant to be fair all of the time'. So here I'm taking the use of S&D as one of these counterbalances to these sort of 'unfair - but these are the rules' scenarios.
it was Nicklaus who I recall many years ago advising us all to get to know the rules well - you can save yourself shots. So here is one such situation.
'At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance'
There is no mention of playability of the ball - so no decision to be made on whether it is playable or not, and so no discussion required with another other player. And also no mention of 'distance' from hole before and after a shot is played.
Interesting that on another question on the rules that I raised a while back (pitch marks on the fringe and on your line when you are playing onto the green - and you can't repair them even although it seems 'unfair' - or deer hoof print on green on players line of putt...!) I found an example of the situations where golf was 'never meant to be fair all of the time'. So here I'm taking the use of S&D as one of these counterbalances to these sort of 'unfair - but these are the rules' scenarios.
it was Nicklaus who I recall many years ago advising us all to get to know the rules well - you can save yourself shots. So here is one such situation.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Well, I have when I putted into a bunker and so has Tiger Woods when he putted into a water hazard. So with two such fine examples, it must be ok. :thup:
This is hardly a new argument but SwingsitlikeHogan rightly points out that playability doesn't have to come into it. Just refer to 27-1 and play from where you played your previous shot. No need for any moral scruples.
[I'm currently on my travels: this posting comes from a boat on the Yangtse River. Perhaps unusual for a GM contribution?]
bobmac
Major Champion
I do know the rules thank you.
I do know it's allowed thank you
And as I've said before, I just dont agree with it.
Just my opinion
I do know it's allowed thank you
And as I've said before, I just dont agree with it.
Just my opinion
woody69
Journeyman Pro
I'm confused a little with this thread. Did the OP decide to take a "stroke and distance" penalty just because they didn't fancy walking the 50 yards or so back down the slope past the green, so dropped where they stood and played another? I thought the ball had to be either unplayable or lost / OOB etc?
Does this rule mean that if I'm say 20 yards from the green, thin a wedge right through the back into some thick rough I can just claim stroke and distance penalty and play from my original location and not bother looking for the 1st shot? Although I have taken a drop, in a matchplay situation where I have a shot over the other players it kind of gives me a practice shot does it not? i.e. I go for the tricky shot, screw it up so play the safer option? Not sure it would be used that often, but does seem odd to me!
Does this rule mean that if I'm say 20 yards from the green, thin a wedge right through the back into some thick rough I can just claim stroke and distance penalty and play from my original location and not bother looking for the 1st shot? Although I have taken a drop, in a matchplay situation where I have a shot over the other players it kind of gives me a practice shot does it not? i.e. I go for the tricky shot, screw it up so play the safer option? Not sure it would be used that often, but does seem odd to me!
Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
Yes, in the rules, you can do that.
It's not a free shot though, it costs you a penalty shot.
If you thin your 3rd through the green you can drop another ball there as your 4th shot then play the same shot again as your 5th.
It only makes sense if you're going to put it closer that way than with another 2 strokes from where your first ball finished up.
full_throttle
Tour Winner
you can declare your ball unplayable at any time
Colin L
Tour Winner
All Rule 27-1 does, Woody, is to give you the chance to try again - but at the price of a penalty stroke. Indeed at the point where you try again you are effectively 2 strokes worse off: the rubbish shot that got you into trouble and the penalty. And it's worth remembering that it's only a chance to get it right the second time. You could just as easily get it wrong again and end up in the same or even worse trouble!
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woody69
Journeyman Pro
Yeah sure, I understand that, but if I have a shot on a particular hole over someone else and I'm convinced my 1st effort will be a nightmare to play I could just take the drop. Guess it can be a bit tactical?
Sure, thanks all for clarifying.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
not sure what the relevance of this statement is here but I am afraid it's actually incorrect.
proceeding under stroke and distance (Rule 27-1) is not the same as proceeding under Rule 28, ball unplayable although the first option under Rule 28, option a., is to proceed under Rule 27-1......
chrisd
Major Champion
Woody, you can be on the green with a 4 foot putt, miss it by an inch and declare the ball unplayable if you want - not a sensible option given the penalty etc but you would be perfectly ok to do it
d2cko
Assistant Pro
I'm with bobmac on this one!
I can't understand why you would waste a shot in any situation? Going back to the OP, surely you would fancy getting the 40yd pitch closer to the flag, thus giving you a better chance at holing the 5th shot, than the 5ft drop? You might even hole the pitch, you'll never hole the drop!
I can't understand why you would waste a shot in any situation? Going back to the OP, surely you would fancy getting the 40yd pitch closer to the flag, thus giving you a better chance at holing the 5th shot, than the 5ft drop? You might even hole the pitch, you'll never hole the drop!
Kellfire
Blackballed
Your handicap is indicative that you're relatively comfortable playing from poor lies.
A 28 handicap can be as close to certain as possible that he'll be closer after a penalty than he would be playing from a poor lie.
d2cko
Assistant Pro
But the OP states that his pitch (which he elected not to play) was in the fairway, yet he dropped into heather???
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