Unstable and Potentially Dangerous Exterior Garden Party Wall

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just so you can see where we are coming from

Up close and intimate looking to the neighbours
https://ibb.co/zZRqFVV

Fron the garden looking to the house - The Wall (with lean-to built on top)
https://ibb.co/rkkDbZFm
And what we are currently completing - and they have had 'comments' all the time.
https://ibb.co/GRrqLZJ

Just yesterday as Mrs SILH discussed what to do with the fencer and landscaper - Mr Next Door stuck his head out of his lean-to door and said in an irritated tone 'what are you now'?

Back to this if I may. But first - an update on the fencing issue subject of the thread - in the end we simply went with two big planters with 6ft high trellising rather than fencing fixed in any way to the wall. Nothing has been done to stabilise the 'party' wall (our fencer had deemed it possible unstable). We have not got an independent survey done of the wall. I think we probably will have to do that.

Current issue is that as my previous photos showed - but now much worse - many of the timbers of the side panel of my neighbour's lean-to that is supported on the 'party' wall are now very badly rotted - so badly that there is a risk that it could collapse. It is also very unsightly and not attractive for any future potential buyer of our property. We have not yet established ownership of the wall - there is nothing on our deeds of about 1918 to indicate such that I can see or read of. Until 15yrs or so ago we had a similar lean-to that did not have it's own side panel - we removed that lean-to thereby exposing their panel to the elements - I do not know which lean-to structure came first - theirs I suspect given the side panel is part of their structure.

Our neighbours cannot see how badly rotten the timber is (as it is our side that is external to the weather - rather obviously - Some questions.

• Do we have a 'responsibility' to inform our neighbours of the state of their lean-to?
• Do we have to give them access to maintain their structure - they have never made such a request?
• Having exposed their side panel by removing our lean-to (some 15yrs ago) do we have any responsibility for the state it is now in?
• They will have to replace the side panel. Assuming that the wall is a party wall can we refuse a replacement side-panel or have rights to approve what they might propose (we most probably wouldn't)
• If they want to replace the side-panel can we ask that they first have a survey done to establish the stability of the wall?
• If they have to take the wall down do we have a say in what a replacement will look like and what is made of - I assume so if party - but if party will we be required to share the cost of replacing the wall.

I could go to Planning and ask all of these questions, but Mrs Hogie does not want me to, as she does not want any record of a possible issue that might lead to a dispute being recorded against our property (not what you would want when selling)

 

[williamalex1]

If you still intend to move up north why bother ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you still intend to move up north why bother ?

Probably not for 18-24months - and it looks really awful and Mrs Hogie thinks it could put potential buyers off.

The current pressing issue is that the timbers are now so rotten it might fall down on top of them...and despite everything - we wouldn't really want that. Will shortly be telling them but want to try and establish our positin before I do - just in case arguments and disputes arise over the state of it, replacing it etc etc

MrsH did like one suggestion from a forummer very much - one dark middle of the night test it's stability by hitting it hard with a sledgehammer...

 

[drdel]

Probably not for 18-24months - and it looks really awful and Mrs Hogie thinks it could put potential buyers off.

The current pressing issue is that the timbers are now so rotten it might fall down on top of them...and despite everything - we wouldn't really want that. Will shortly be telling them but want to try and establish our positin before I do - just in case arguments and disputes arise over the state of it, replacing it etc etc

MrsH did like one suggestion from a forummer very much - one dark middle of the night test it's stability by hitting it hard with a sledgehammer...

Choose a dark and very windy night👍

 

[Lord Tyrion]

A few thoughts, although not the definitive answers you are looking for

The first question is slightly a moral one for me. Would you want it on your conscience if something happened and you had not told them?

Second, not sure but it makes sense that they would have access. If you want this resolving then why say no? You probably can dig your heels in but it makes things very awkward.

Third, you are not responsible for rotten wood on their property because you exposed it to the elements. You do not have to build items in order to protect what is on their property.

The rest is beyond my knowledge. I don't see that asking planning for answers on this is a record of an issue? You are not complaining, you are merely finding out where you stand, you are being prepared. I am not sure you can avoid either the planners or a solicitor for much longer IF you want this to be sorted.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A few thoughts, although not the definitive answers you are looking for

The first question is slightly a moral one for me. Would you want it on your conscience if something happened and you had not told them?

Second, not sure but it makes sense that they would have access. If you want this resolving then why say no? You probably can dig your heels in but it makes things very awkward.

Third, you are not responsible for rotten wood on their property because you exposed it to the elements. You do not have to build items in order to protect what is on their property.

The rest is beyond my knowledge. I don't see that asking planning for answers on this is a record of an issue? You are not complaining, you are merely finding out where you stand, you are being prepared. I am not sure you can avoid either the planners or a solicitor for much longer IF you want this to be sorted.

Many thanks

First; I am 100% going to tell them - and sooner rather than later.

Second: I would of course give them access - just needed to check whether I had to or not.

Third: OK. It is a party wall and the panel only became exposed to the elements when we took our 'in-fill' lean-to down. Prior to that it was the panel between our lean-to and theirs. We did not have a separate side pane. The lean-tos may have been put up at the same time - but that would have been many moons ago. Maybe even before our neighbours moved in. And as they were built very differently - with their side panel being the 'shared' side panel - I think theirs must have been first.

Planning and/or solicitor - I suspect so.

 

[clubchamp98]

Many thanks

First; I am 100% going to tell them - and sooner rather than later.

Second: I would of course give them access - just needed to check whether I had to or not.

Third: OK. It is a party wall and the panel only became exposed to the elements when we took our 'in-fill' lean-to down. Prior to that it was the panel between our lean-to and theirs. We did not have a separate side pane. The lean-tos may have been put up at the same time - but that would have been many moons ago. Maybe even before our neighbours moved in. And as they were built very differently - with their side panel being the 'shared' side panel - I think theirs must have been first.

Planning and/or solicitor - I suspect so.

You need to tell them in no holes barred language.
That their property in in danger of coming down.
It could be on them ,you ,your grandchildren or anyone else visiting the property.
One stipulation of a party wall is you must look after your side.

It’s in the interest of you both to give access ,why wouldn’t you?
If you think your safety is in danger then the council or solicitor is a must, but if it’s for cosmetic reasons I don’t think they can do much.
Take some photos to show the neighbours if they dought your assessment.
Tell them it could be their children/ grandchildren under there when it finally gives way.
Good luck.

 

[Dibby]

I wouldn't write to them myself. better to engage the services of a party wall surveyor and get them to take care of this. They will know all the ins and outs, can act as a neutral third party and your neighbours will most likely listen to them more than they would to you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You need to tell them in no holes barred language.
That their property in in danger of coming down.
It could be on them ,you ,your grandchildren or anyone else visiting the property.
One stipulation of a party wall is you must look after your side.

It’s in the interest of you both to give access ,why wouldn’t you?
If you think your safety is in danger then the council or solicitor is a must, but if it’s for cosmetic reasons I don’t think they can do much.
Take some photos to show the neighbours if they dought your assessment.
Tell them it could be their children/ grandchildren under there when it finally gives way.
Good luck.

Of course I would give them access - just asking the devil's advocate question as to whether I had to.

I will have my neighbour round so he can see what the issue is. Maybe I just do that then wait to see what they suggest. But at the same time I think that I do need to mention the instability of the wall as that will influence what they propose.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Of course I would give them access - just asking the devil's advocate question as to whether I had to.

I will have my neighbour round so he can see what the issue is. Maybe I just do that then wait to see what they suggest. But at the same time I think that I do need to mention the instability of the wall as that will influence what they propose.

This with knobs on. If it is a wall that looks a bit rubbish then they may think 'so what?'. If they are aware it could fall down, different beast. If it could fall your way, they were aware, did nothing and it did damage then that would seem negligent to me. Hold that one up your sleeve in case it is required to be dropped into the conversation.

 

[GB72]

Of course I would give them access - just asking the devil's advocate question as to whether I had to.

I will have my neighbour round so he can see what the issue is. Maybe I just do that then wait to see what they suggest. But at the same time I think that I do need to mention the instability of the wall as that will influence what they propose.

Rights of access depend on what easements are included in the title deeds. That said, if no such rights exist and you decline access, your neighbour could apply for access under the Access to Neighbouring Land Act.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Rights of access depend on what easements are included in the title deeds. That said, if no such rights exist and you decline access, your neighbour could apply for access under the Access to Neighbouring Land Act.

They do need access and I'll happily give them that - thanks for that clarification.

 

[Robster59]

I think you're being very generous to them considering the history here. For my twopennorth....

• Do we have a 'responsibility' to inform our neighbours of the state of their lean-to?
  • Legally I would have thought not. Morally I would say so.
• Do we have to give them access to maintain their structure - they have never made such a request?
  • I wouldn't have said you have to but it's been answered above and you have already said you would do anyway.
• Having exposed their side panel by removing our lean-to (some 15yrs ago) do we have any responsibility for the state it is now in?
  • Absolutely not. As LT said, you are not responsible for the upkeep or protection of their property, especially when it seems they can't be bothered to do anything about it themselves.
• They will have to replace the side panel. Assuming that the wall is a party wall can we refuse a replacement side-panel or have rights to approve what they might propose (we most probably wouldn't)
  • If it's on their property and doesn't contravene any local or building regulations, I'm not sure how you could.
• If they want to replace the side-panel can we ask that they first have a survey done to establish the stability of the wall?
  • I would certainly recommend it.
• If they have to take the wall down do we have a say in what a replacement will look like and what is made of - I assume so if party - but if party will we be required to share the cost of replacing the wall.
  • If party, then I would say Yes to both all those questions.

 

[williamalex1]

Could your sound system have caused the damage

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Could your sound system have caused the damage

No - but the washing machine that they have up against the wall their side might have...