Unplayable lie. Is it acceptable or frowned upon?

[HawkeyeMS]

But you would instantly call a penalty on yourself if you moved a twig and the ball rolled back into a depression in the ground, even though your ball is now in a worse position. So on top of receiving a penalty for no gain, you are actually at a disadvantage.

If things like that were covered in 'equity' so that you were not penalised if you gained no advantage, then I'd agree with not taking advantage of the rules when they could benefit you.
I know that's never going to happen because it's too subjective.

This argument actually reminds me of all the 'old school' pool players that think playing a deliberate foul is cheating.

Of course I would, but I also wouldn't attempt to move the twig if my ball was resting against it as I know I risk a penalty and that would be stupid.

As I said, I didn't say what SLH did was wrong, against the rules or anything like that and I certainly didn't say he was a cheat, I personally just don't think it would be the right thing for me to do in that situation because I would have trouble accepting it in my own head. If my ball is in knee high clag in a deep hole then fine, I'll take an unplayable. If I putt the ball off the green and it's sitting in the fairway, I'm not going to but that's just me.

There must be a reason why the pro's don't take unplayable lies when they putt off the green at places like Augusta (and it does happen) and that reason must only be that they don't consider it to be in the "spirit of the game", in the rules yes but that is different, everyone has their own interpretation of it and this is mine.

 

[Wessex]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, doesn't Rule 1-2 cover this situation?

.....(ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole?

It might not be cheating but it is bending the rules and to be honest, your game isn't likely to improve if you are not prepared to master these difficult shots. (The use of the word "you" isn't referring to anyone on here.)

 

[Wessex]

Someone asked whether a ball in the middle of a fairway could be deemed unplayable. Well, if it was in a deep divot hole then Rule 28 could be used because playing out of a divot can have very unpredictable results from a thinned shot to a fatted one. Therefore, depending on the ability of the player, declaring a ball unplayable from this lie would be acceptable to me.

Also, when a ball comes to lie on stony ground. Having just spent £600 on a new set of irons I am not going to risk damaging them and I would deem the ball unplayable form that lie even though I had a perfect stance to swing unimpeded.

But, to take a shot again because you didn't like the outcome of the previous shot goes against the Spirit of the Game by not playing the ball as it lies.

I'm new to this Forum so I don't want to fall out with anyone over this thread. It certainly got the old grey matter in my head stirring to try to accept that the putting green scenario was fair, but I can't; sorry SLH.

 

[Region3]

There must be a reason why the pro's don't take unplayable lies when they putt off the green at places like Augusta (and it does happen) and that reason must only be that they don't consider it to be in the "spirit of the game"

Absolutely not a cat in hell's chance of a pro not taking the option that gives him the best score on a hole IMO. If they play it as it lies that's because they think it gives them a better chance to score.

 

[Foxholer]

There must be a reason why the pro's don't take unplayable lies when they putt off the green at places like Augusta (and it does happen) and that reason must only be that they don't consider it to be in the "spirit of the game", in the rules yes but that is different, everyone has their own interpretation of it and this is mine.

Wow! That's a huge leap!

I'd be more inclined to think they weigh up their options and figure that the 1 shot penalty makes that option unattractive.

They (with maybe a few exceptions) certainly tend to 'take advantage' of the Rules wherever appropriate/possible. The impression I've got from the several I've spoken to have generally stated that the Rules are there for help as well as for penalties, so use them that way.

 

[Ethan]

How can a ball in the middle of the fairway be unplayable ?

Depends what you mean by unplayable. If unplayable means that you simply can't strike the ball, that is one thing, but it could also mean that you have no decent chance of hitting it anywhere good.

The problem with such a rule is that different players of differing skill levels will not agree on what is unplayable. Should unplayable be a ball that Seve couldn't get out of its current position? Or an average 15 handicapper?

The administrators of the game have determined that it must therefore be the player's decision, and the penalty is effectively that of a lost ball. If a player wants to declare a ball in the middle of the fairway with an open shot to the green unplayable, more fool him.

 

[Region3]

It might not be cheating but it is bending the rules

How is it? It is following them to the letter.
The rule says that at any time you may under penalty of one stroke replay the previous shot.

What if there's a big water hazard at the front of the green that you putt into instead of it just rolling down the fairway. Do you go all the way round to the other side of the hazard to drop?

 

[guest100718]

Someone asked whether a ball in the middle of a fairway could be deemed unplayable. Well, if it was in a deep divot hole then Rule 28 could be used because playing out of a divot can have very unpredictable results from a thinned shot to a fatted one. Therefore, depending on the ability of the player, declaring a ball unplayable from this lie would be acceptable to me.

Also, when a ball comes to lie on stony ground. Having just spent £600 on a new set of irons I am not going to risk damaging them and I would deem the ball unplayable form that lie even though I had a perfect stance to swing unimpeded.

But, to take a shot again because you didn't like the outcome of the previous shot goes against the Spirit of the Game by not playing the ball as it lies.

I'm new to this Forum so I don't want to fall out with anyone over this thread. It certainly got the old grey matter in my head stirring to try to accept that the putting green scenario was fair, but I can't; sorry SLH.

Its not a mulligan you know.... it still costs a shot.

 

[North Mimms]

Its not a mulligan you know.... it still costs a shot.

Anyone who is objecting to taking an unplayable seems to have forgotten this.
There is a cost.

 

[Matty]

http://www.randa.org/Rules-and-Amat...ocus/Archive/2010/August/Unplayable-ball.aspx

The above article sums it up perfectly for me. Unplayable ball is totally acceptable - it's a rule of golf for heaven's sake with the endorsement of the R and A. I suspect most amateur golfers should use it more often than they currently do.

 

[Stuey01]

In this putting off the green scenario, do you drop the ball, or place it?
If you drop it, and it rolls off down the hill, do you do the whole drop 3x then place routine? Or are you stuck with where it rolled to?

Interesting debate for sure. Personally I think it sounds like a rubbish green and a worse putt

 

[Foxholer]

How can a ball in the middle of the fairway be unplayable ?

Bob.

They are not taking an 'Unplayable' (Rule 28)!

They are invoking a different Rule (27 Stroke and Distance) which is also an option in Rule 28 - as it is in several other Rules.
a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played.............

Common misnomer (like 'declaring a ball lost') that has been persistent throughout this situation/part of the thread.

 

[Foxholer]

In this putting off the green scenario, do you drop the ball, or place it?
If you drop it, and it rolls off down the hill, do you do the whole drop 3x then place routine? Or are you stuck with where it rolled to?

Interesting debate for sure. Personally I think it sounds like a rubbish green and a worse putt

Normal rules apply. On the green place; off the green drop. Only 2 drops then place.

Slick greens, slopes and wind can cause havoc! US Open would normally see examples, but I suspect not this week!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Wow! That's a huge leap!

I'd be more inclined to think they weigh up their options and figure that the 1 shot penalty makes that option unattractive.

They (with maybe a few exceptions) certainly tend So we appear to be saying that your interpretaion of the rules is determined by your ability, which can't be right surely?

Lets say I have my 2nd shot from 100yds and I mishit it into a deep greenside bunker. The ball isn't unplayable in the bunker, but I am not very good at hitting high bunker shots. I evaluate the situation and based on my previous performance in bunkers of this type, I know it is likely to take me at least 3 shots to get out and then will probably take 2 putts so I'll be down in 7. However, I know the shot that got me in the bunker is a rare one and I probably won't do it again so I take an unplayable drop, hit my 4th on the green and 2 putt for a 6. All because I don't consider myself good enough to get out of a bunker...doesn't seem right does it?

I accept that the rules are there to help as well, but they shouldn't be used to overcome lack of ability IMHO. The interpretation of a rule should be the same for everyone, regardless of how good they are. Unfortunately however, that will never be the case as it would be impossible to write them in such a way that they were.

Everyone is entitled to their interpretation and as long as it is withing the rules then they can make whatever decision they like, but some interpretations are more "right" than others.to 'take advantage' of the Rules wherever appropriate/possible. The impression I've got from the several I've spoken to have generally stated that the Rules are there for help as well as for penalties, so use them that way.

I was hoping someone would pick up on that

So we appear to be saying that your interpretaion of the rules is determined by your ability, which can't be right surely?

Lets say I have my 2nd shot from 100yds and I mishit it into a deep greenside bunker. The ball isn't unplayable in the bunker, but I am not very good at hitting high bunker shots. I evaluate the situation and based on my previous performance in bunkers of this type, I know it is likely to take me at least 3 shots to get out and then will probably take 2 putts so I'll be down in 7. However, I know the shot that got me in the bunker is a rare one and I probably won't do it again so I take an unplayable drop, hit my 4th on the green and 2 putt for a 6. All because I don't consider myself good enough to get out of a bunker...doesn't seem right does it?

I accept that the rules are there to help as well, but they shouldn't be used to overcome lack of ability IMHO. The interpretation of a rule should be the same for everyone, regardless of how good they are. Unfortunately however, that will never be the case as it would be impossible to write them in such a way that they were.

Everyone is entitled to their interpretation and as long as it is withing the rules then they can make whatever decision they like, but some interpretations are more "right" than others.

 

[Foxholer]

So we appear to be saying that your interpretaion of the rules is determined by your ability, which can't be right surely?

Not interpretation of the Rules. But certainly what is 'Unplayable' varies according to ability. Another reason why the Rules are worded perfectly as they are.

Lets say I have my 2nd shot from 100yds and I mishit it into a deep greenside bunker. The ball isn't unplayable in the bunker, but I am not very good at hitting high bunker shots. I evaluate the situation and based on my previous performance in bunkers of this type, I know it is likely to take me at least 3 shots to get out and then will probably take 2 putts so I'll be down in 7. However, I know the shot that got me in the bunker is a rare one and I probably won't do it again so I take an unplayable drop, hit my 4th on the green and 2 putt for a 6. All because I don't consider myself good enough to get out of a bunker...doesn't seem right does it?

The bold bit is the misnomer (if that's not one also) I was referring to earlier.

You are actually taking 'Stroke and Distance'! Different Rule (27-1a), but an option in Ball Unplayable (28)!

And your play was a quite reasonable one - though at a cost.

Consider the much more common case of a duffed tee shot into the heather that stretches for 150 yards. There is no question that 3 off the Tee (Stroke and Distance) is a better choice than a further half dozen strokes hacking your way through that stuff. Though if there happens to be a path near where the ball is, then 'taking an unplayable' with a drop to the path could well be another 'good' option. In neither case was the ball truly unplayable, but using the Rules 'to your advantage' is quite legitimate - and regularly done! It is absolutely no different when you are near the hole, though folk's mindset seems to be different!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Not interpretation of the Rules. But certainly what is 'Unplayable' varies according to ability. Another reason why the Rules are worded perfectly as they are.


The bold bit is the misnomer (if that's not one also) I was referring to earlier.

You are actually taking 'Stroke and Distance'! Different Rule (27-1a), but an option in Ball Unplayable (28)!

And your play was a quite reasonable one - though at a cost.

Consider the much more common case of a duffed tee shot into the heather that stretches for 150 yards. There is no question that 3 off the Tee (Stroke and Distance) is a better choice than a further half dozen strokes hacking your way through that stuff. Though if there happens to be a path near where the ball is, then 'taking an unplayable' with a drop to the path could well be another 'good' option. In neither case was the ball truly unplayable, but using the Rules 'to your advantage' is quite legitimate - and regularly done! It is absolutely no different when you are near the hole, though folk's mindset seems to be different!

Actually I was proceeding under rule 28, it's my scenario but regardless of which rule I used, it still doesn't seem "right" to me

 

[Region3]

Lets say I have my 2nd shot from 100yds and I mishit it into a deep greenside bunker. The ball isn't unplayable in the bunker, but I am not very good at hitting high bunker shots. I evaluate the situation and based on my previous performance in bunkers of this type, I know it is likely to take me at least 3 shots to get out and then will probably take 2 putts so I'll be down in 7. However, I know the shot that got me in the bunker is a rare one and I probably won't do it again so I take an unplayable drop, hit my 4th on the green and 2 putt for a 6. All because I don't consider myself good enough to get out of a bunker...doesn't seem right does it?

I know it's not exactly the same, but isn't weighing up the options something we do regularly regardless of whether or not there's a penalty involved?

Remember the flop shot that TW holed last year?
Thick rough, downhill all the way to the hole, with a water hazard past the flag. You or I wouldn't (probably ) dream of opening up a 60deg and taking a full swing because we assess that more often than not we're ending up wet.

Bar a monster putt it's the only way of getting down in 2, but we'd make sure we get on the green away from the water and settle for a 2 putt bogey.

Our choice of shot is being determined by our ability, not by what is the best way to get in the hole quickly. Are we wimping out because we won't back ourselves.

I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, but I'm just enjoying the debate.

 

[Foxholer]

Actually I was proceeding under rule 28, it's my scenario but regardless of which rule I used, it still doesn't seem "right" to me

But it does solve Bob's 'issue' of the ball sitting perfectly on the fairway being 'unplayable' - if not how to best proceed!

No problem with the choice. Play it as it lies or, at the cost of 1 shot, go back to where last played. The choice is yours.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I know it's not exactly the same, but isn't weighing up the options something we do regularly regardless of whether or not there's a penalty involved?

Remember the flop shot that TW holed last year?
Thick rough, downhill all the way to the hole, with a water hazard past the flag. You or I wouldn't (probably ) dream of opening up a 60deg and taking a full swing because we assess that more often than not we're ending up wet.

Bar a monster putt it's the only way of getting down in 2, but we'd make sure we get on the green away from the water and settle for a 2 putt bogey.

Our choice of shot is being determined by our ability, not by what is the best way to get in the hole quickly. Are we wimping out because we won't back ourselves.

I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, but I'm just enjoying the debate.

This is all very true, our choice of shot is determined by our ability, but at least we still play a shot. My argument in all this is that you can decide not to play a shot in favour of a different one, even though a shot is perfectly playable.

 

[Slab]

I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, but I'm just enjoying the debate.

Agree that its a cracking thread and credit to the contributors for keeping it completely civil as I reckon there's a few pages of life left in this one yet...enjoying reading it from the fringe (where I'd certainly consider taking an unplayable from )