Unplayable ball in hedge next to massively sloping fairway

[rulefan]

So I am entitled to and have indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 4 club lengths with 2 penalty shots.

You haven't even been offered 4 club lengths. They are not yet available for 'sale'. The 'second' two are only available if you deem the original dropped ball to be unplayable. And you can't do that until the ball is in play again.

 

[rulefan]

As a related question.......
If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths, why don't I have to measure one club length and drop and measure the second cl from where the ball ends up?

Once the the ball has been dropped correctly (within 2cl) it is now in play. The rule says 'up to' which is exactly what you have done.
Do you think it would make sense to be able to repeat drop 90+ times at 1" intervals until you have found the perfect lie?

 

[RRidges]

It only became a requirement in 1984. They seem to have managed ok before then.

Any idea why it became a requirement then? And why the requirement was subsequently dropped?

 

[bobmac]

The PGA didn't award 'degrees'.

I'm talking about the degree I got for passing the 3 year course which included a rules module.
Why on earth would I claim to get a degree for passing a rules exam.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that you are entitled to a 4 club length drop, paid for or otherwise. You are simply entitled to drop a ball for one shot penalty and that ball must finish somewhere within the 2 clubs' length relief area. If you then wish to declare the ball unplayable, you may do so under the same conditions as the first drop.

Thanks for explaining the rules to me

You haven't even been offered 4 club lengths. They are not yet available for 'sale'. The 'second' two are only available if you deem the original dropped ball to be unplayable. And you can't do that until the ball is in play again.

Thanks for explaining the rules to me

Once the the ball has been dropped correctly (within 2cl) it is now in play. The rule says 'up to' which is exactly what you have done.

Thanks for explaining the rules to me.

 

[Colin L]

''Because the book says so'' is not an acceptable answer.

Since in the end that is the only real answer, you're stuck. In common with other sports, golf rules have their arbitrary aspects. In this instance, the purpose of the rule is to allow you to get on with your game when your ball ends up in a place from which it is impossible/difficult to play. How many strokes it costs you and how far you can shift your ball are just decisions made by the rulemakers. Either or both the penalty and the distance could have been different if they had decided it differently. But they didn't and you just get on with what is in the rule book until it is changed when you just get on with whatever is new.

In other words, if you feel strongly that you should be allowed to take 4 club lengths relief in one go for an unplayable ball, let the R&A/USGA know and perhaps they will change one arbitrary distance for another. Perhaps they'll decide at the same time to make the penalty for that 5 strokes. In soccer, it was at some time decided that a defender handling a ball within a box 18 yards from the goal line would be a penalty kick. Why not 16? . In hockey you have to be within 16 yards of the goal to score. Why not 18?
Because the book [arbitrarily] says so.

 

[RRidges]

Nowhere in the rules does it state that you are entitled to a 4 club length drop, paid for or otherwise. You are simply entitled to drop a ball for one shot penalty and that ball must finish somewhere within the 2 clubs' length relief area. If you then wish to declare the ball unplayable, you may do so under the same conditions as the first drop.

Totally agree!
The Rules provide certain relief options from an 'unplayable' situation. Doing anything else would be a breach of that rule! Any subsequent action by the player is a separate situation.

 

[YandaB]

You haven't even been offered 4 club lengths. They are not yet available for 'sale'. The 'second' two are only available if you deem the original dropped ball to be unplayable. And you can't do that until the ball is in play again.

There was that occasion at the Open where Speith was claiming an uplayable on the hill on the 13th at Royal Birkdale, didn't drop it in the tour trucks but moved to the side onto the practice ground. If it's good enough for John Paramor ...

 

[bobmac]

Since in the end that is the only real answer, you're stuck.

I know, I was just hoping someone, anyone, would agree that it made sense.
And thanks for not telling me what the rules say.

 

[RRidges]

Thanks for explaining the rules to me




Thanks for explaining the rules to me



Thanks for explaining the rules to me.

Well, now that you have had the rules explained to you, why are you suggesting, promoting or contemplating something that is outside the rules?
And what other rules would you consider 'enhancing' by similarly adding further options to?

 

[Swango1980]

Hurrah


If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths.
If it's obvious that 2 club lengths will not be enough to get the ball into a playable position, I will need a further penalty shot and 2 more club lengths. So I am entitled to and have indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 4 club lengths with 2 penalty shots.

So I measure 4 CL, drop a ball and check with the original ball which is still in its original position that the new playable position is not nearer the hole and within 4 cl which I have paid for.
I know the rules state I have to do it in 2 drops to get a reference point for the second measurement of 2 cl but my question is why, if I am entitled to and 'paid for' 4 cl, why do I need an exact reference point for the second measuring point when I don't know where the first measuring point is ie the original ball position as I've already picked it up as I'm allowed to do so.
I know the ball may roll after the first drop so please don't tell me.
I know this isn't in the rules but...

Hey Jimmy, there's my ball in the bush, Titleist 2. I'm going to need 4 cl to get out of there.
1,2,3,4..... tee in the ground not nearer the hole.
Happy with that Jimmy?
Jimmy......Yeup, not nearer the hole and within 4 cl which you have 'paid for'

If that makes more sense, why is that not allowed?

''Because the book says so'' is not an acceptable answer.

As a related question.......
If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths, why don't I have to measure one club length and drop and measure the second cl from where the ball ends up?



Yes it was at the Belfry where I got my degree.

That was a bit of a devious thing to do. Reply to my comment, but completely change my words so it appeared I said something you agreed with, when I was saying the complete opposite.

I'm afraid you are going to find that what the book says is pretty important. That is where the rules are based. I tried to explain a situation where it would make sense to lift the ball up before measuring your relief area. The reference point still exists, even when the ball is lifted. It is not my problem that you cannot comprehend this. But, if you have exhausted getting the answer you want on a Rules forum, your next step is to go and bother your Club Committee, and get them to write to the R&A. Maybe they'll pay to send you on a course, and the lecturers can sit down and try to explain it to you one to one.

As for your last question, again it is probably easy to answer. The rules specifically provide you with 2 club lengths. Over the years, they have probably determined that one club is limited, and 3 club lengths is generally unnecessary. They also felt using 2 club lengths allowed golfers to measure the relief area pretty efficiently. Probably why they didn't say the relief area was 50 pink castle tee lengths for example. Personally, I've never had to take penalty relief twice from the one spot, and so it is probably going to be a wasted effort to start documenting rules about taking a double penalty in one move when measuring the relief area. But, again, you can ask the people in the R&A when you speak to them.

 

[bobmac]

Well, now that you have had the rules explained to you, why are you suggesting, promoting or contemplating something that is outside the rules?

Because my suggestion makes more sense to me.
How else do the rules change?

 

[bobmac]

That was a bit of a devious thing to do. Reply to my comment, but completely change my words so it appeared I said something you agreed with, when I was saying the complete opposite.

1. Everyone could read what you wrote ...

If you were to try and take 4 club lengths relief in ONE go, you would need to find where it says in the rules either:

• For unplayable, you can take 4 club lengths relief for 2 penalty shots; or
• Your reference point can be the end of the grip of a golf club (for your "2nd" 2 club lengths)

You'll find neither mentioned in the rules

I was agreeing with your first option as exactly the change I'd like to see.
2. I did not completely change your words, they were a straight copy and paste.
3. As I pointed out in post no.34, I don't play any more so wouldn't affect me in any way

It was just a general question about reference points which turned a corner I wasn't expecting and the final answer was ''it says so in the book'' which I didn't find satisfactory.

 

[Swango1980]

1. Everyone could read what you wrote ...

If you were to try and take 4 club lengths relief in ONE go, you would need to find where it says in the rules either:

• For unplayable, you can take 4 club lengths relief for 2 penalty shots; or
• Your reference point can be the end of the grip of a golf club (for your "2nd" 2 club lengths)

You'll find neither mentioned in the rules

I was agreeing with your first option as exactly the change I'd like to see.
2. I did not completely change your words, they were a straight copy and paste.
3. As I pointed out in post no.34, I don't play any more so wouldn't affect me in any way

It was just a general question about reference points which turned a corner I wasn't expecting and the final answer was ''it says so in the book'' which I didn't find satisfactory.

The correct answer to your question, however, is exactly because the book tells you what you must do. If you just measured 4 club lengths straight away, I'm sure even you know you'd fall foul of not following the correct procedure.

So, the question you were really asking was, "Why does it not say it in the book?"

For that, you'd need to ask the rules bodies why. However, you are looking at a situation that is probably so incredibly rare that the rules bodies simply felt that there was no need to add to the rule book to say what you could do when taking multiple unplayables. Not when the rules already have a pretty simple process anyway to deal with that, you just do it in 2 stages. However, I think most golfers would sooner take back on line relief or stroke and distance before they'd consider taking multiple penalties by taking x club lengths relief (x>2).

 

[rulefan]

There was that occasion at the Open where Speith was claiming an uplayable on the hill on the 13th at Royal Birkdale, didn't drop it in the tour trucks but moved to the side onto the practice ground. If it's good enough for John Paramor ...

He went 'back on a line' which got him onto the practice ground which was not out of bounds.

 

[rulefan]

Because my suggestion makes more sense to me.

If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths, why don't I have to measure one club length and drop and measure the second cl from where the ball ends up?

You seem to suggest that on the first 2cl drop you should be permitted to make two incremental drops. Have I got that right?

 

[doublebogey7]

[QUOTE

Thanks for explaining the rules to me

[/QUOTE]

You are welcome, but you haven't answered the question that formed the remainder of my post, which you conveniently haven't quoted. What would the limits of the relief area be and what if after the drop the ball remained unplayable?

 

[bobmac]

You seem to suggest that on the first 2cl drop you may make two incremental drops. Have I got that right?

I am suggesting marking the original position of the ball or leaving it where it is, measuring 4 club lengths and dropping the ball observing all the normal rules and adding 2 penalty shots. The only difference is I haven't dropped a ball after measuring the first 2 club lengths

 

[bobmac]

[QUOTE

Thanks for explaining the rules to me

You are welcome, but you haven't answered the question that formed the remainder of my post, which you conveniently haven't quoted. What would the limits of the relief area be and what if after the drop the ball remained unplayable?

There would be no change to a normal unplayable drop except it's 4 club lengths or less from the original ball and not 2

 

[rulefan]

I am suggesting marking the original position of the ball or leaving it where it is, measuring 4 club lengths and dropping the ball observing all the normal rules and adding 2 penalty shots. The only difference is I haven't dropped a ball after measuring the first 2 club lengths

I was asking about this statement

If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths, why don't I have to measure one club length and drop and measure the second cl from where the ball ends up?

There is no mention of four club lengths

 

[bobmac]

I was asking about this statement
There is no mention of four club lengths

Got you now.
It was a different but related question.

If I had a normal unplayable lie, paid the one shot penalty so was able to drop within 2 cl, why is it I don't have to drop a ball after the first cl and measure the second cl from where the ball rolled to assuming it was within one cl