Unplayable ball in hedge next to massively sloping fairway

[bobmac]

Which is a good example of the general (and I thought explicit) point that you need a reference point for the second drop i.e. the spot where the ball comes to rest after the first drop ?

You need a reference point for the first drop i.e. the spot where the ball comes to rest after the previous shot.

Me: You happy with that drop?
Oppo: Nope, it's nearer the hole.
Me: No it's not.
Oppo: Where was the ball?
Me: Over there somewhere

 

[Colin L]

Bob
It isn't required, but if you're that worried about it, mark the spot with a peg tee in the ground before you lift your ball.

 

[Steven Rules]

I'm asking why is it that you can lift your ball from its original position which means your match play opponent cant tell if the new position 2 drops away is not nearer the hole from the balls original position.

Countless people on these threads in the past have suggested that, while not required under the rules, it is good practice not to lift your ball until you are clear on what action you are going to take and where you are going to drop the ball - just to avoid potential "lifter's remorse" subsequently. In the case of your specific scenario it would also give your match play opponent the opportunity to be comfortable with your proposed course of action. (Again, not required under the Rules but it could save arguments later.) After you have decided to lift your ball to take relief it is good practice - but not required under the Rules - to mark the original position of your ball first.

Not nearer the hole is more important in my opinion than 4 club lengths versus 2 x 2 club lengths.

In my opinion, the most important thing is to drop the ball in the correct place. This requires the player to select BOTH the correct reference point AND relief area (which also takes into account being not nearer the hole).

If I was in such a situation, I would not touch the ball until my opponent has agreed the new position was not nearer the hole and as the ball hasn't been moved, I could prove it.

That is very good practice. Alternatively you could mark the original position of the ball with a tee or similar object.

Me: You happy with that drop?
Oppo: Nope, it's nearer the hole.
Me: No it's not.
Oppo: Where was the ball?
Me: Over there somewhere

As discussed above, this is an important reason why it is good practice either to not lift your ball too soon and/or to mark its original spot before lifting it.

 

[salfordlad]

That's lucky because I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Colin.

And here's the joy of a public discussion site, it's public. If you want private, there is a facility for that.

 

[salfordlad]

I mean taking two penalties in the process.

That was understood, but the lateral relief requirements do not allow you to not drop the ball in the relief area.

 

[salfordlad]

Actually, the simple answer to why you can't take 4CLlateral relief all at once is that it's not one of the relief options in 19.2c!

Precisely, as I noted in #17 and #19 above. The relief option must be completed entirely before further action can be selected, whether that is playing the ball or proceeding under another rule.

 

[RRidges]

Precisely, as I noted in #17 and #19 above. The relief option must be completed entirely before further action can be selected, whether that is playing the ball or proceeding under another rule.

It often amazes me, until I also do it, that folk can make simple things quite complicated!
And this was a pretty simple situation!

 

[cliveb]

Actually, the simple answer to why you can't take 4CLlateral relief all at once is that it's not one of the relief options in 19.2c!

Yes, of course. But the problem with just stating "that's the rule" is that golfers often respond by saying "it doesn't make sense, why is that the rule?".

I was just trying to give a rationale for why it does make sense.

 

[bobmac]

Bob
It isn't required, but if you're that worried about it, mark the spot with a peg tee in the ground before you lift your ball.

Yes I know it's not required

Countless people on these threads in the past have suggested that, while not required under the rules, it is good practice not to lift your ball until you are clear on what action you are going to take and where you are going to drop the ball - just to avoid potential "lifter's remorse" subsequently. In the case of your specific scenario it would also give your match play opponent the opportunity to be comfortable with your proposed course of action. (Again, not required under the Rules but it could save arguments later.) After you have decided to lift your ball to take relief it is good practice - but not required under the Rules - to mark the original position of your ball first.

Yes I know

That is very good practice. Alternatively you could mark the original position of the ball with a tee or similar object.
As discussed above, this is an important reason why it is good practice either to not lift your ball too soon and/or to mark its original spot before lifting it.

Yes I know

I wasn't questioning what the rules say, I was asking why the position after .........never mind, I'm not going to repeat myself again.
Note to self.....
NEVER reply to a rules thread again.

 

[Colin L]

Yes I know it's not required



Yes I know



Yes I know

I wasn't questioning what the rules say, I was asking why the position after .........never mind, I'm not going to repeat myself again.
Note to self.....
NEVER reply to a rules thread again.

Astonishing. You've been given a number of answers to the questions of what and why and all you do is say you knew that already and get huffy.

 

[rulefan]

I have a theory but I'll keep it to myself as I've hijacked your thread enough.

Let us know your theory about ?

 

[bobmac]

Let us know your theory about ?

Not a chance, you'll all start telling me what the rules say again.

 

[Colin L]

Time for this thread to be closed, perhaps?

 

[cliveb]

Time for this thread to be closed, perhaps?

Before that happens, I have a supplementary question.
If you think that when you take your 2CL drop the ball might roll back into the hedge, are you allowed to drop another ball (announcing that this isn't the actual drop) to test whether it will?
I strongly suspect that you aren't and that the act of dropping the "test ball" means you've taken one of your relief options and it's now the ball in play.

 

[jim8flog]

Before that happens, I have a supplementary question.
If you think that when you take your 2CL drop the ball might roll back into the hedge, are you allowed to drop another ball (announcing that this isn't the actual drop) to test whether it will?
I strongly suspect that you aren't and that the act of dropping the "test ball" means you've taken one of your relief options and it's now the ball in play.

Interpretation

14.4/2 – Test Drops Are Not Allowed

The dropping procedure in Rule 14.3 means that there is an element of uncertainty when taking relief under a Rule. It is not in the spirit of the game to test how a dropped ball will react.

For example, in taking relief from a cart path (immovable obstruction), a player determines his or her relief area and realizes that the ball may roll and come to rest in a bush in the relief area. Knowing that the dropped ball would not be in play without intent, the player test drops a ball in one side of the relief areaRelief Area: The area where a player must drop a ball when taking relief under a Rule. Each relief Rule requires the player to use a specific relief area whose size and location are based on these three factors...Continued) to see if it rolls into the bush.

Since this act is contrary to the spirit of the game, the Committee is justified in disqualifying the player under Rule 1.2a (Serious Misconduct).

 

[cliveb]

Interpretation
14.4/2 – Test Drops Are Not Allowed

OK thanks.
As I expected, but thought it was worth checking.

 

[Steven Rules]

I wasn't questioning what the rules say, I was asking why the position after .........never mind, I'm not going to repeat myself again.
Note to self.....
NEVER reply to a rules thread again.

Awww, come on Bob. Don't be like that. Be a good sport and tell us your theory. Who knows...it may cause us to reflect and look at a particular rule or rules from a different perspective.

We weren't to know which rules you did and didn't know. In fairness to all of us, in post #34 you did confess to not knowing at least one of the rules.

I've been back through your posts, studied them carefully, and I think I now understand the underlying intent of your question that so far hasn't been answered. Of course I may have misunderstood you (again). If so, please try and clarify. Bear with me......

I'm asking why is it that you can lift your ball from its original position which means your match play opponent cant tell if the new position 2 drops away is not nearer the hole from the balls original position.

1. Player deems his ball is unplayable in position A.
2. Player decides to take lateral unplayable penalty relief from position A.
3. Player drops correctly within the 2 club length relief area relative to position A. One penalty stroke. Ball comes to rest in position B within the correct relief area.
4. Player deems his ball is unplayable in this new position B.
5. Player decides to take lateral unplayable penalty relief from position B.
6. Player drops correctly within the 2 club length relief area relative to position B. One more penalty stroke. Ball comes to rest in position C within the correct relief area.

Your main question - but this is where I might be wrong - How can the player (and his opponent) "...tell if the new position 2 drops away [C] is not nearer the hole from the balls original position[A]." (your original words and punctuation from #33)

I further note the importance to you (#28 and #33) of making sure the final position [C] is not nearer the hole than the starting position [A].

Leaving aside the option of marking the original position of the ball [A then B], which doesn't seem to be getting to the heart of your question, the answer lies in geometry and in the rules, especially the concepts of the reference point and relief area.

For the lateral unplayable relief opttion, the reference point is the spot of the original ball (i.e. A prior to the first drop and B prior to the second drop). By definition the relief area must not be nearer the hole than the reference point.

Thus by definition and geometry - if the ball has been correctly dropped both times - B must be further from the hole than A, and C must be further from the hole than B.

Therefore C must also be further from the hole than A.

QED.

If this is not what you were wanting to know then.....I give up and I'm afraid you'll need to explain it more clearly.

 

[bobmac]

Thus by definition and geometry - if the ball has been correctly dropped both times - B must be further from the hole than A, and C must be further from the hole than B.

Therefore C must also be further from the hole than A.

Ignoring the fact you've just explained the rules to me again........

How do you know it's been dropped correctly if the original position of the ball wasn't marked. And would you mark position B?
And for what it's worth, I never claimed to be a rules expert but in post no. 34 I admitted not knowing a new rule which changed several years after I passed my PGA rules exam with merit in 2006.

 

[Steven Rules]

How do you know it's been dropped correctly if the original position of the ball wasn't marked. And would you mark position B?

A great way to provide reassurance that the ball has been dropped in the right place is to mark (a) the original spot of the ball (and/or leave the ball in place for as long as possible) and (b) the reference point and (c) the extent of the relief area. (But there is no requirement under the Rules to do so. It is just good practice.)

You are persistent in asking what happens if the ball hasn't been marked first. Your post #41 provides a self-evident indication of the sorts of adverse consequences that can arise.

For very simple, straightforward relief situations I personally tend not to mark any of the above but the more complex it becomes (e.g. greater distance between original ball and reference point, uncertainty about where the reference point is, multiple separate abnormal course conditions close together, one very large abnormal course condition, trees or other obstacles intervening, very small relief area) then the more likely I am to mark it out as described above.

For the purposes of our scenario here**, yes I would mark it all out for position A and drop the ball. The ball then rolls to position B and is in play at position B. I would then pick up all the tees related to position A and set them out again for position B using the same methodology.

(**I m pretty sure that in real life I would carefully consider the stroke and distance or back-on-the-line options before opting for the lateral relief option a second time. Definition of insanity etc....)

 

[bobmac]

I give up

A great way to provide reassurance that the ball has been dropped in the right place is to mark (a) the original spot of the ball (and/or leave the ball in place for as long as possible) and (b) the reference point and (c) the extent of the relief area. (But there is no requirement under the Rules to do so. It is just good practice.)

You just can't help your self can you.
As I can't seem to get an answer to my simple question, I'm out