Unplayable ball in hedge next to massively sloping fairway

[Steven Rules]

I give up


You just can't help your self can you.
As I can't seem to get an answer to my simple question, I'm out

I am sorry - and probably equally as frustrated as you, Bob - that I and others haven't been able to help you.

This is a Rules forum and it is the Rules that tell us how to get our way around the golf course. Nevertheless I tried to avoid getting too bogged down with explaining or quoting the Rules to you because you seem to have an aversion to that.

Your 'simple' question might seem simple or self-evident to you but clearly nobody else on this forum is able to understand what your question is. Similarly, at post #24 you assumed people would know what your 'next question' would be but apparently nobody could pick it. You obviously have something specific on your mind that nobody else is understanding.

If you last qualified on the rules in 2006 you may find it beneficial to do a refresher by enrolling in the online, free and self-paced R&A Rules Academy at https://www.randa.org/en/rules-academy

(I am not singling you out for this. Many other followers of this forum could also benefit from enrolling too.)

Sorry we couldn't help you.

 

[rulefan]

several years after I passed my PGA rules exam with merit in 2006.

Just out of interest, where did you take that exam? Was it at the Belfry? I may have been there.

 

[clubchamp98]

I also do find it very strange that given the rules of golf are very precise and black and white that you don’t have to mark the original ball position.
This is the original position all subsequent drops start from.
A bit like the handball rule in football. We know the rule but it seems wrong.

 

[theoneandonly]

I also do find it very strange that given the rules of golf are very precise and black and white that you don’t have to mark the original ball position.
This is the original position all subsequent drops start from.
A bit like the handball rule in football. We know the rule but it seems wrong.

Because it's not always practical for a start. Your ball could be up a tree, in thick gorse or somewhere similar where you don't want to go.
I also had a situation where someone made a big fuss as I hadn't marked by ball before lifting it and taking my drop. But I was in a dried up penalty area but unplayable so my reference point wasn't where I retrieved my ball from.

 

[rulefan]

I also do find it very strange that given the rules of golf are very precise and black and white that you don’t have to mark the original ball position.
This is the original position all subsequent drops start from.
A bit like the handball rule in football. We know the rule but it seems wrong.

More often than not the original position is so obvious and is also irrelevant. Given that the RBs (and players) want to speed the game up, why spend time on an unnecessary action. In those few circumstances it needs to be done, do it.

 

[Colin L]

How do you know it's been dropped correctly if the original position of the ball wasn't marked. And would you mark position B?

Quite simply by remembering the spot where the ball was using recognisable features of the location and by being able to locate the spot from that memory, mental image or whatever you want to call it. It's as simple as that. And if you mistrust your ability to do that as much as I do, you'll do what I do ..... but I expect you can guess what that is.

 

[clubchamp98]

More often than not the original position is so obvious and is also irrelevant. Given that the RBs (and players) want to speed the game up, why spend time on an unnecessary action. In those few circumstances it needs to be done, do it.

Speed up the game really.
It takes less time than the obvious argument that would start if your op thinks your closer to the hole.
I just think it’s a bad rule.

 

[theoneandonly]

Speed up the game really.
It takes less time than the obvious argument that would start if your op thinks your closer to the hole.
I just think it’s a bad rule.

How would you word it then?

 

[clubchamp98]

Because it's not always practical for a start. Your ball could be up a tree, in thick gorse or somewhere similar where you don't want to go.
I also had a situation where someone made a big fuss as I hadn't marked by ball before lifting it and taking my drop. But I was in a dried up penalty area but unplayable so my reference point wasn't where I retrieved my ball from.

If your up a tree / gorse etc your ball is your reference point if you can’t retrieve it.
You don’t need to mark in a penalty area but I always put a tee down where I am going to drop to make sure I am not in front of my ball before picking it up.
Never been in an argument using this method!
Just seems to me in a very rules specific sport this seems an omission.

 

[clubchamp98]

How would you word it then?

You should mark your ball before you pick it up .
If you can’t leave it there and use that as the reference for relief.
Pretty basic.

 

[theoneandonly]

You should mark your ball before you pick it up .
If you can’t leave it there and use that as the reference for relief.
Pretty basic.

You think? I can easily retrieve a ball from the gorse, I just don't want to go in and mark it.

 

[clubchamp98]

You think? I can easily retrieve a ball from the gorse, I just don't want to go in and mark it.

Just use the ball as the reference point .
There is no need to mark it then.

 

[RRidges]

I agree that the 'point of reference' should be marked. I'd be interested to know why that hasn't been stated as a requirement.
Nothing in this discussion has convinced me that it shouldn't be specified in the rule, but it isn't, so I do wonder why.

 

[theoneandonly]

Just use the ball as the reference point .
There is no need to mark it then.

Exactly...........bingo.

 

[clubchamp98]

Exactly...........bingo.

That’s what I said from the start.
I might be wrong but think that’s what Bob was asking, just mark it or leave the ball there .
You always have a reference on the ground then.

 

[Swango1980]

I give up


You just can't help your self can you.
As I can't seem to get an answer to my simple question, I'm out

It is difficult to know what the question is, as the rule seems to have been explained in great detail by multiple people, and yet you are still asking for an answer to a "simple" question.

As I understand it, your simple question was "why can I not take two unplayable drops in one go (i.e. take 4 club lengths relief). The answer to that is simple. You have a reference point for the 1st 2 club lengths, that is the position of the original ball (even if it has been lifted since). However, at no point do you have a reference point for the 2nd 2 club lengths relief. If you were to try and take 4 club lengths relief in ONE go, you would need to find where it says in the rules either:

• For unplayable, you can take 4 club lengths relief for 2 penalty shots; or
• Your reference point can be the end of the grip of a golf club (for your "2nd" 2 club lengths)

You'll find neither mentioned in the rules. As cliveb (I think) pointed out, if you were to follow the full process correctly, you'd be very unlikely to get a full 4 club lengths from the original position, as the 1st drop is unlikely going to end up to the extreme 2 club length position from the original lie.

As far as an opponent questioning your drop in relation to your original position, it is simply good practice to keep the original ball there, or mark it. It is not required, so if the original ball has not been marked, then there is some reliance on the integrity of the golfer. The question might be, why do the rules simply not require the original ball to be left in position until the relief area has been measured? I am sure there are good reasons. For example, a player might have to fight their way to get under a bush, so they can get to the ball and identify it. At that point, they may want to lift their ball and take it back out of the bush, before going to their bag to get their driver and measure the relief area. It would be an absolute pain in the backside, and waste time, if they had to leave their ball in position, or put a tee peg in before leaving the bush to mark relief area. Then, once done, fight their way back under the bush again to get their ball. If I was their opponent, I would be only too happy to trust their judgment in remembering the correct reference point in that situation, and thankfully the rules allow this as well.

 

[bobmac]

For unplayable, you can take 4 club lengths relief for 2 penalty shots.

Hurrah


If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths.
If it's obvious that 2 club lengths will not be enough to get the ball into a playable position, I will need a further penalty shot and 2 more club lengths. So I am entitled to and have indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 4 club lengths with 2 penalty shots.

So I measure 4 CL, drop a ball and check with the original ball which is still in its original position that the new playable position is not nearer the hole and within 4 cl which I have paid for.
I know the rules state I have to do it in 2 drops to get a reference point for the second measurement of 2 cl but my question is why, if I am entitled to and 'paid for' 4 cl, why do I need an exact reference point for the second measuring point when I don't know where the first measuring point is ie the original ball position as I've already picked it up as I'm allowed to do so.
I know the ball may roll after the first drop so please don't tell me.
I know this isn't in the rules but...

Hey Jimmy, there's my ball in the bush, Titleist 2. I'm going to need 4 cl to get out of there.
1,2,3,4..... tee in the ground not nearer the hole.
Happy with that Jimmy?
Jimmy......Yeup, not nearer the hole and within 4 cl which you have 'paid for'

If that makes more sense, why is that not allowed?

''Because the book says so'' is not an acceptable answer.

As a related question.......
If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths, why don't I have to measure one club length and drop and measure the second cl from where the ball ends up?

Just out of interest, where did you take that exam? Was it at the Belfry? I may have been there.

Yes it was at the Belfry where I got my degree.

 

[rulefan]

I agree that the 'point of reference' should be marked. I'd be interested to know why that hasn't been stated as a requirement.
Nothing in this discussion has convinced me that it shouldn't be specified in the rule, but it isn't, so I do wonder why.

It only became a requirement in 1984. They seem to have managed ok before then.

 

[rulefan]

Yes it was at the Belfry where I got my degree.

The PGA didn't award 'degrees'. It was a certificate to show that you had passed the PGA test to a particular (high) standard. Although the course was probably run by two EGU Competition referees who were on the R&A panel (possibly Desmond, James or Ivor), the certificates were not recognised by the R&A at that time even though the test was round about level 2 standard.
I never kept my certificate as I had qualified via the R&A and EGU and the PGA cert was not recognised.

 

[doublebogey7]

Hurrah


If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths.
If it's obvious that 2 club lengths will not be enough to get the ball into a playable position, I will need a further penalty shot and 2 more club lengths. So I am entitled to and have indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 4 club lengths with 2 penalty shots.

So I measure 4 CL, drop a ball and check with the original ball which is still in its original position that the new playable position is not nearer the hole and within 4 cl which I have paid for.
I know the rules state I have to do it in 2 drops to get a reference point for the second measurement of 2 cl but my question is why, if I am entitled to and 'paid for' 4 cl, why do I need an exact reference point for the second measuring point when I don't know where the first measuring point is ie the original ball position as I've already picked it up as I'm allowed to do so.
I know the ball may roll after the first drop so please don't tell me.
I know this isn't in the rules but...

Hey Jimmy, there's my ball in the bush, Titleist 2. I'm going to need 4 cl to get out of there.
1,2,3,4..... tee in the ground not nearer the hole.
Happy with that Jimmy?
Jimmy......Yeup, not nearer the hole and within 4 cl which you have 'paid for'

If that makes more sense, why is that not allowed?

''Because the book says so'' is not an acceptable answer.

As a related question.......
If I claim a ball unplayable for penalty of one shot, I am entitled to and indeed 'paid for' relief of up to 2 club lengths, why don't I have to measure one club length and drop and measure the second cl from where the ball ends up?

Yes it was at the Belfry where I got my degree.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that you are entitled to a 4 club length drop, paid for or otherwise. You are simply entitled to drop a ball for one shot penalty and that ball must finish somewhere within the 2 clubs' length relief area. If you then wish to declare the ball unplayable, you may do so under the same conditions as the first drop.

I don't see how the four-club length option could be part of the rules without it becoming further complicated. I'm assuming you think the relief area would remain at 2 clubs lengths, in which case what would then happen if the ball after dropping returned to the point 2 clubs lengths away from its original position and still unplayable?