Two 'lost' balls, one search area

[Steven Rules]

Clarification Lost/2 is crystal clear. When a player has played the ball in play and a provisional ball into the same vicinity where both balls can be searched for at the same time, the player is allowed only three minutes to search for both balls.

But what about when two different players play their respective balls into the same vicinity where they can be searched for at the same time? I have always assumed the same principle. (i.e. one period of three minutes for both balls) But Lost/2 only covers the specific situation of a single player searching for his or her two balls, not two players each searching for a ball each.

If it is just one three minute search period, does anybody have a private ruling that specifically covers this, or is it just something that is 'generally accepted' as an in-princple extrapolation of the specifics of Lost/2?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

How can 2 players "share" a time frame? Surely it's 3 mins per each player.

 

[Steven Rules]

If I am correctly interpreting what you are suggesting - and I may not be - I guess the scenario would have to go something like this in order for your comment to 'work'.

Player A and Player B hit their balls into the same area of thick rough. A would have to say to B something like: "I'll help you search for your ball first but let me make it clear to you that we are not searching for mine at this stage." After three minutes no ball is found. Then A says to B: "OK. Too bad that we couldn't find your ball, now let's spend another three minutes looking in this same area for my ball."

I just don't think that this is reasonable, but the strict wording of the rules only covers one player and two balls, not two players with a ball each.

 

[jim8flog]

Not a specific rule but a guideline

Ready Golf

You should search for your own ball before helping another player look for their ball.

 

[rulefan]

IMO the rule is clear a (all/any) player has three minutes to search for their ball. But 5.6a would apply if the player delays his search in order to search for another ball.
Doesn't the search start when the player arrives at the area where their ball is likely to be?

 

[wjemather]

IMO the rule is clear a (all/any) player has three minutes to search for their ball. But 5.6a would apply if the player delays his search in order to search for another ball.
Doesn't the search start when the player arrives at the area where their ball is likely to be?

Or when they would have arrived if not for deliberately delaying their arrival.

Seems obvious that if you are looking in the area where 2 balls might be, it impossible to look for one without also looking for the other.

 

[rulie]

Maybe a situation where Rule 20.3 (Situations not covered by the Rules) applies, "treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules."
I would say that it's one three minute search period in the situation described in the original post.

 

[3offTheTee]

Clarification Lost/2 is crystal clear. When a player has played the ball in play and a provisional ball into the same vicinity where both balls can be searched for at the same time, the player is allowed only three minutes to search for both balls.

I have asked this before to you “well versed“ people on here.

The clarification relates to lost balls in the same vicinity.

How is same vicinity determined if the ball is lost. Is same vicinity ‘about’ 5 metres or more OR less?

The balls are potentially “lost” If not they would be found immediately.
This seems subjective and is not usually the case with The Rules of Golf. It is similar when 1 player has hit 2 balls or 2 players 1 ball.

 

[Steven Rules]

Maybe a situation where Rule 20.3 (Situations not covered by the Rules) applies, "treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules."

Thanks. That will do nicely.

 

[Steven Rules]

Doesn't the search start when the player arrives at the area where their ball is likely to be?

The three minutes starts when "....the player or their caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it. "

The second paragraph of the definition of Lost covers one scenario around delaying the start of the search but, if I am pernickity about that, it doesn't quite seem to fit the circumstances of my original question.

 

[Backsticks]

If both ball are in the same vicinity, i.e. the ground that will be searched for one ball is the same as the ground that will be searched for the other, then it is technically impossibly to search for one ball, but not the other. one cannot not see the ball not being searched for. So searchers have to be deemed to be searching for both balls simultaneously.
Supporting that would be the inequitable situation if the 3mins ran sequentially rather than in parallel : the second ball being searched for in such a scenario would be gaining an unfair advantage over the field by effectively having a 6 minute search time. A case somewhat analagous to gaining from a playing partners backstop ball being left behind the hole, now explicitly forbidden, to avoid one players play of the hole advantaging a playing partner.
I think this would be in line with the 'similar situations'.

 

[3offTheTee]

If both ball are in the same vicinity, i.e. the ground that will be searched for one ball is the same as the ground that will be searched for the other, then it is technically impossibly to search for one ball, but not the other. one cannot not see the ball not being searched for. So searchers have to be deemed to be searching for both balls simultaneously.
Supporting that would be the inequitable situation if the 3mins ran sequentially rather than in parallel : the second ball being searched for in such a scenario would be gaining an unfair advantage over the field by effectively having a 6 minute search time. A case somewhat analagous to gaining from a playing partners backstop ball being left behind the hole, now explicitly forbidden, to avoid one players play of the hole advantaging a playing partner.
I think this would be in line with the 'similar situations'.

How wide is the same vicinity when both balls are “lost”? Very subjective and difficult to quantify.

Is 12 square metres the same vicinity? How about 30?

 

[Steven Rules]

It depends on vegetation, ground cover, terrain etc. Make a reasonable judgement based on the circumstances. If you can't decide what is reasonable then see 20.1.

 

[Slab]

I'd have thought it would be two 3 minute search times initially starting together and running concurrently

Most often the clocks will finish together too but it's easy to consider that One (or both) searches may get 'paused' for ball identification while a search continues for another ball?

 

[Colin L]

How wide is the same vicinity when both balls are “lost”? Very subjective and difficult to quantify.

Is 12 square metres the same vicinity? How about 30?

Your can't put a measurement on it but it's not too difficult to spot. It's the area the two players and caddies, if there are any, are together trampling over.

 

[salfordlad]

I agree Lost/2 does not deal with this situation explicitly. But I don't think it needs to, that second paragraph of the definition of Lost provides clear guidance - you cannot get to your search area and claim you are not searching for your ball while others are searching in the same area. I don't believe this means the search clocks are required to be precisely synchronised unless the two ball owners overlap precisely on search areas and getting there, but the clock starts would be likely close. I don't see a need for recourse to 20.3.

 

[Colin L]

I'd have thought it would be two 3 minute search times initially starting together and running concurrently

Most often the clocks will finish together too but it's easy to consider that One (or both) searches may get 'paused' for ball identification while a search continues for another ball?

The search time isn't paused for ball identification. What constitutes a reasonable time has now been quantified as around a minute but that time can extend beyond the 3 minute search time. It's well explained in a Clarification 18.2a(1)/3
https://www.randa.org/rog/interpretations/rule-18#18_2a_1_3

If a ball is spotted, how do you know which player's it is (if either's) until it has been identified? Both players are equally involved in the identification process.

 

[Voyager EMH]

You must not deliberately delay. This includes delaying your search for your ball.
Therefore each player must search for their own ball at the same time.

 

[Colin L]

I agree Lost/2 does not deal with this situation explicitly. But I don't think it needs to, that second paragraph of the definition of Lost provides clear guidance - you cannot get to your search area and claim you are not searching for your ball while others are searching in the same area. I don't believe this means the search clocks are required to be precisely synchronised unless the two ball owners overlap precisely on search areas and getting there, but the clock starts would be likely close. I don't see a need for recourse to 20.3.

I have to say I've never even thought about this. And having thought about it as a result of this thread, don't see much need to think about it. It's all too obvious that one player and his entourage, if any, can't go trampling around in the same patch of ground as his ball is in looking exclusively for someone else's ball. What does he say if it is his ball that is found first? "Sorry, I'm not looking for mine at the moment. I'll have got forget where it is and start looking for it later when the other guy's time is up"?

 

[Slab]

The search time isn't paused for ball identification. What constitutes a reasonable time has now been quantified as around a minute but that time can extend beyond the 3 minute search time. It's well explained in a Clarification 18.2a(1)/3
https://www.randa.org/rog/interpretations/rule-18#18_2a_1_3

If a ball is spotted, how do you know which player's it is (if either's) until it has been identified? Both players are equally involved in the identification process.

Thanks

That's a wee bit brutal if the search is for a srixon and a titleist and a srixon is spotted (and identified as a srixon) after 10 seconds in a tree/bush, but player marking cant be seen yet. The srixon player must take the time to ID it, losing perhaps a third of their search time if it ultimately isn't even their ball