Trees and branches blown onto golf course..

[Sparkyph3]

After a storm such as the recent Eunice, does a player get relief if their ball ends up right next or even on top of a tree or branch? It is not clear from the Rules if this comes under Abnormal Course Conditions. Immovable Objects as I understand it are artificial, so presumably that Rule does not apply. If relief is permitted, which Rule applies and how is the relief to be taken, i.e. would it be Nearest Point of Complete Relief (for stance and swing) then 1 club length from the reference point?

 

[wjemather]

Fallen branches and trees that are no longer rooted are loose impediments (rule 15.1), i.e. your ok to move them (or break bits off) without moving your ball but there's no free relief from interference when unable to do so.

In the case of large fallen branches or entire trees, committees should probably designate the area as ground under repair or a no play zone, and maybe provide a drop zone, until they can be cleared.

 

[Foxholer]

I wouldn't expect any relief 'automatically', as there's none available for the likes of sticks etc under normal conditions. However, given that the course is open, I would expect some sort of notice about 'abnormal conditions'. So refer to Pro Shop, Starter or the like.

 

[Sparkyph3]

In the case of large fallen branches or entire trees, committees should probably designate the area as ground under repair or a no play zone, and maybe provide a drop zone, until they can be cleared.

I've had this said - but how should one proceed if the Committee are unaware of the situation therefore have not designated GUR, or posted anything about Abnormal Course Conditions. Seems to be a very grey area in the Rules. Even worse: Ball comes to rest on top of a branch blown onto and across a cart path, right next to a red penalty area (if relief is permitted from the branch first).

 

[jim8flog]

Where I play following the recent storms there were so many relatively large branches all over the course that I seriously doubt that anybody would have the time to go round the course declaring all such areas as GUR. It can only be treated as GUR if so designated by the course manager/committee.

When it comes to the cart path if you have interference with your stance/area of intended swing by the path you get relief and the branch is irrelevant. Once you have picked up the ball you would be free to move the branch.

When it comes to golf generally we cannot expect perfect lies etc every time we play and sometime you just to accept certain things are rub of the green.

 

[wjemather]

I've had this said - but how should one proceed if the Committee are unaware of the situation therefore have not designated GUR, or posted anything about Abnormal Course Conditions. Seems to be a very grey area in the Rules. Even worse: Ball comes to rest on top of a branch blown onto and across a cart path, right next to a red penalty area (if relief is permitted from the branch first).

You can either play it as it lies or take penalty relief (rule 19: unplayable ball, if outside a penalty area).
As Jim says, if there is another another obstruction interfering with your stroke, such as a cart path, from which free relief is normally available (note: the stroke you are intending to make must reasonable), you may take free relief from that and move the branch before taking your drop.

 

[backwoodsman]

Where I play following the recent storms there were so many relatively large branches all over the course that I seriously doubt that anybody would have the time to go round the course declaring all such areas as GUR. It can only be treated as GUR if so designated by the course manager/committee.

When it comes to the cart path if you have interference with your stance/area of intended swing by the path you get relief and the branch is irrelevant. Once you have picked up the ball you would be free to move the branch.

When it comes to golf generally we cannot expect perfect lies etc every time we play and sometime you just to accept certain things are rub of the green.

Are you sure about that? Rule 16.1a(3) suggests otherwise - at least in many potential scenarios.

 

[rulefan]

Are you sure about that? Rule 16.1a(3) suggests otherwise - at least in many potential scenarios.

!6.1a(3) is about 'obstacles' which are not movable and as a result it could be unreasonable to make a stroke.
The this case the broken off branch (a Loose Impediment) may be removed as it is clearly not unreasonable to make a stroke once it has been removed.

 

[rulefan]

I wouldn't expect any relief 'automatically', as there's none available for the likes of sticks etc under normal conditions. However, given that the course is open, I would expect some sort of notice about 'abnormal conditions'. So refer to Pro Shop, Starter or the like.

Why would you not expect relief? Unattached sticks and branches are Loose Impediments and Rule 15 applies.

 

[Foxholer]

Why would you not expect relief? Unattached sticks and branches are Loose Impediments and Rule 15 applies.

Agreed.
By 'relief', I was meaning moving the ball - as opposed to removing the impediment, as per (most of) R15.

 

[jim8flog]

Are you sure about that? Rule 16.1a(3) suggests otherwise - at least in many potential scenarios.

In the scenario given (we can only guess) that a stroke would be possible. The ball is resting on the branch not under it.

So it could only be judged on a case by case scenario, bearing in mind the definition of a stroke.

 

[backwoodsman]

!6.1a(3) is about 'obstacles' which are not movable and as a result it could be unreasonable to make a stroke.
The this case the broken off branch (a Loose Impediment) may be removed as it is clearly not unreasonable to make a stroke once it has been removed.

That was what i was alluding to. And putting on my pedants hat, although a (big?) branch has "blown onto a cart path", it doesn't automatically follow that it's not still attached. But yes, of course, if it's not still attached then it can be moved.

 

[IslaG]

You can also break off a small branch of a large fallen branch that is completely unattached to the tree . So you don’t need to move an enormous log. However if you did decide to shift a huge log or branch you may enlist anyone you like to help you (15.1a)

 

[Sparkyph3]

Here is a photo of the conundrum. From some of the responses it would seem that as this branch is no longer attached to its 'parent', it can be treated as a loose impediment. However, you can see that the ball is resting on it, above the cart path, and Rule 15 says that a player needs to be careful in moving loose impediments near the ball, because there will be a penalty if moving the loose impediment causes the ball to move, which it certainly would in this instance. For the record the player took Unplayable Ball relief under penalty for this situation, but wasn't sure if they were entitled to drop the ball directly under the spot on the branch on the cart path, then take relief from the cart path (which was still problematic as they may have been able to take their stance but could not swing as there is a hedge directly behind in a red penalty area.)

 

[rulefan]

As the ball was in effect on the path and his stance/swing would have been affected by the path, he could have taken relief from the path directly without penalty.

Edit: Just noticed the hedge and penalty area.
It seems his only option was to take the penalty for moving the branch and ball and the play the ball from the path.
Would unplayable have given better options than the IO options from the path (eg BoL)?

 

[jim8flog]

Here is a photo of the conundrum. From some of the responses it would seem that as this branch is no longer attached to its 'parent', it can be treated as a loose impediment. However, you can see that the ball is resting on it, above the cart path, and Rule 15 says that a player needs to be careful in moving loose impediments near the ball, because there will be a penalty if moving the loose impediment causes the ball to move, which it certainly would in this instance. For the record the player took Unplayable Ball relief under penalty for this situation, but wasn't sure if they were entitled to drop the ball directly under the spot on the branch on the cart path, then take relief from the cart path (which was still problematic as they may have been able to take their stance but could not swing as there is a hedge directly behind in a red penalty area.)

It is clear from that photo that you could have played a stroke (bearing in mind that length of the stroke is not specified in the definitions, think of a putt).
You would therefore have been entitled to take relief from the path and once the ball had been lifted remove the branch if it was totally unattached.

 

[Sparkyph3]

That seems quite definitive, Rulefan, thank you. In another unrelated instance a whole tree was blown across the course, partly rough, partly fairway, and a player's ball ended up right next to it. A discussion ensued as to whether free relief was available. It was treated as Abnormal Course Condition and free relief of 1 cub length from reference point was permitted, though the tree still interfered with the players' swing (follow-through) and he was non too happy. Was this correct?

 

[wjemather]

That seems quite definitive, Rulefan, thank you. In another unrelated instance a whole tree was blown across the course, partly rough, partly fairway, and a player's ball ended up right next to it. A discussion ensued as to whether free relief was available. It was treated as Abnormal Course Condition and free relief of 1 cub length from reference point was permitted, though the tree still interfered with the players' swing (follow-through) and he was non too happy. Was this correct?

Doesn't sound like it. Unless the committee had defined the area to allow free relief, none is available; as explained above (assuming the tree is no longer rooted) you can move it or break branches off it (if your can do so without moving the ball), but you do not get relief. If free relief is available, complete (or maximum) relief must be taken; i.e. the condition you are taking relief from must not still be interfering (unless impossible).

 

[jim8flog]

That seems quite definitive, Rulefan, thank you. In another unrelated instance a whole tree was blown across the course, partly rough, partly fairway, and a player's ball ended up right next to it. A discussion ensued as to whether free relief was available. It was treated as Abnormal Course Condition and free relief of 1 cub length from reference point was permitted, though the tree still interfered with the players' swing (follow-through) and he was non too happy. Was this correct?

As an aside if you are taking allowable relief and you hit the thing you are taking relief from with your swing then you have not taken full relief and incur the general penalty (shots) .

What a lot of players do not follow/understand is it is the nearest point of full relief and the one club length is taken from this point.

135
Definitions
Abnormal Course Condition
Any of these four defined conditions:
• Animal Hole,
• Ground Under Repair,
• Immovable Obstruction, or
• Temporary Water.

As you will see from that list a fallen tree is not an Abnormal Course Condition unless it has been declared a GUR by the appropriate person(s).

As as already been said if it is still partially rooted it is not a loose impediment either.

 

[rulie]

Here is a photo of the conundrum. From some of the responses it would seem that as this branch is no longer attached to its 'parent', it can be treated as a loose impediment. However, you can see that the ball is resting on it, above the cart path, and Rule 15 says that a player needs to be careful in moving loose impediments near the ball, because there will be a penalty if moving the loose impediment causes the ball to move, which it certainly would in this instance. For the record the player took Unplayable Ball relief under penalty for this situation, but wasn't sure if they were entitled to drop the ball directly under the spot on the branch on the cart path, then take relief from the cart path (which was still problematic as they may have been able to take their stance but could not swing as there is a hedge directly behind in a red penalty area.)

A picture of the entire area (including hedge and red penalty area) or a diagram would be very helpful in determining options for the player.