Tour Golf v PGA Golf

[Parsaregood]

Cant help to take that further with your thinking and why did Tiger ever goto a coach, for example Butch Harmon....Tiger is a far better golfer than Butch and Butch can not do what Tiger can do, so how can Tiger have learnt anything from Butch?

Butch always coached tiger since he was 13 or 14 and butch played on tour, most tour pros have coaches for a 2nd opinion and so the swing stays the same. It's an educated set of eyes. There are players like Lee Trevino who never had a lesson and would say why would I take advice off a guy I can beat, bubba Watson aswell

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The problem is they have pro in front of their name, if they go and play a tournament and shoot 82 maybe have a few results like that, people notice and think God that guy isn't very good. If you go to a personal trainer and they are a bit pudgy, their knowledge could ge fantastic but at the end of the day if they cant practice what they preach it's not professional. If there are 2 pro's and one has played on the tour at one point or another and the other hasn't but is a head pro I'd give and see the one with high level experience. I could beat the head pro more often than he could beat me in most cases, I learn off people who do something better than I do, not tell me how to or how something should look but they cant actually do it themselves.

That’s very strange because not all “tour pros” are very good teachers . It’s a clear difference between being able to teach and coach, and fixing faults than just playing

Would you prefer to get a lesson from say Claude Harmon or Dustin Johnson ?

Would you pick a PGA qualified coach or the Brabazon Trophy winner

I played in a Pro Am and beat the Pro who has coached ET players ( multiple winners ) and LET players , plus about another 20 PGA qualified Pros - does that mean I shouldn’t get a lesson from them ?

These PGA Pros because they end up concentrating on their coaching lose their edge as players

It’s the same in many sports - a good player doesn’t always mean they are a good teacher

 

[PJ87]

Your case in point is very insular though and not what the majority of club players face..

Just because you can only learn off someone better than you is based o. Your own interpretations, it does not mean others aren't good coaches just because they don't play to a higher ability.

Just because someone can play doesn't mean they can teach, just because someone can teach doesn't mean they can play.. Your example of personal trainer is brilliant because I am one as well as a strength an conditioning coach. Can I lift as much as some of my professional athlete clients no I can't but does that mean I can't coach them to correct technique or how to become stronger, leaner, fitter or faster.. No it doesn't because like the club pro I'm not paid for my ability to out lift someone but for the knowledge I posses to help them improve their sporting performance, which I do regularly for sports people, athlete, body builders, power lifters etc..

The ability to teach and demonstrate isn't about how good the teacher performs v the pupil, it's about the teacher imparting the correct knowledge in a way the pupil can learn, assimilate and improve..

Tour pros getter better because they have a coach that can guide them through processes, drills and learning, yet they can't shoot the lights out themselves. Koepka has Claude Harmon who helps him yet Claude isn't good enough to win a US Open or PGA but he can breakdown Brooks technique and feedback what he needs when he needs it..

Plus the old saying of those who can’t do, teach. Which by no means should be taken as an insult because it takes so much more to explain how to do something to somebody for them to do.

Teaching is an art and without teaching in every profession the profession itself would fail.. not just sport. Anything really

 

[Parsaregood]

That’s very strange because not all “tour pros” are very good teachers . It’s a clear difference between being able to teach and coach, and fixing faults than just playing

Would you prefer to get a lesson from say Claude Harmon or Dustin Johnson ?

Would you pick a PGA qualified coach or the Brabazon Trophy winner

I played in a Pro Am and beat the Pro who has coached ET players ( multiple winners ) and LET players , plus about another 20 PGA qualified Pros - does that mean I shouldn’t get a lesson from them ?

These PGA Pros because they end up concentrating on their coaching lose their edge as players

It’s the same in many sports - a good player doesn’t always mean they are a good teacher

I'm a visual learner, I learn by copying things and watching. I just happen to think it's not very professional to play off a 4 h/cap turn pro and hardly be able to break 80 the rest of your days. I just feel there has to be a bit of pride involved. The PT scenario was meaning if the PT was out of shape, it doesn't look professional and neither does a pga pro who cant play golf to a half decent standard

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm a visual learner, I learn by copying things and watching. I just happen to think it's not very professional to play off a 4 h/cap turn pro and hardly be able to break 80 the rest of your days. I just feel there has to be a bit of pride involved. The PT scenario was meaning if the PT was out of shape, it doesn't look professional and neither does a pga pro who cant play golf to a half decent standard

Being unable to break 80 doesn’t affect their teaching ability - Claude Harmon said in an “open zone” question session he would struggle to break 90 these days because he isn’t game sharp. When looking for a “coach” or “teaching” they only thing that matters for 99.99999% of the people is their coaching and teaching credentials - it’s how they explain and see things that matter not have they score around a golf course.

I know a very successful coach he hardly swings a club now - superb coach and have the results to back it up , I would easily beat him on the course.

But you don’t go to a PGA Pro to see how well they do around a golf course - you go to a Pro so that they can help you swing the club better or help you putt better or think better etc. If you are only interested in how a Pro scores then just watch the tour.

But it’s really poor to dismiss the ability of someone to coach or teach the game based on how well they would score.

 

[Parsaregood]

Being unable to break 80 doesn’t affect their teaching ability - Claude Harmon said in an “open zone” question session he would struggle to break 90 these days because he isn’t game sharp. When looking for a “coach” or “teaching” they only thing that matters for 99.99999% of the people is their coaching and teaching credentials - it’s how they explain and see things that matter not have they score around a golf course.

I know a very successful coach he hardly swings a club now - superb coach and have the results to back it up , I would easily beat him on the course.

But you don’t go to a PGA Pro to see how well they do around a golf course - you go to a Pro so that they can help you swing the club better or help you putt better or think better etc. If you are only interested in how a Pro scores then just watch the tour.

But it’s really poor to dismiss the ability of someone to coach or teach the game based on how well they would score.

As I said I'm a visual learner, I always as anybody to show me this or show me that, how does that feel. I dont see a value in a coach who cant legitimately do or answer these questions personally

 

[Wolf]

I'm a visual learner, I learn by copying things and watching. I just happen to think it's not very professional to play off a 4 h/cap turn pro and hardly be able to break 80 the rest of your days. I just feel there has to be a bit of pride involved. The PT scenario was meaning if the PT was out of shape, it doesn't look professional and neither does a pga pro who cant play golf to a half decent standard

The how someone looks argument again we had months ago. Your judging ability on what you see not what the person knows. Hany Rambod a relatively short and looks out of shape american trainer were he to be judged on appearance would make no money, yet had created the physiques of Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Jeremy Buendia with a combined 15 Mr Olympic titles between them, because they base their learning in his knowledge not how he looks.

Likewise someone may look at me 5 foot 6 and athletic and think I'm not the guy that they want to pack onmuscle and get bodybuilding ready for example yet I've coached many athlete to pro level body building but I haven't ever stood on stage, because my knowledge is more important thab my own physique to my client's.

I understand your point you're a visual learner and that's fine for you as is to have your opinion on what you feel looks bad as a coach. Yet I'd say a huge majority of people taking lessons don't need a former tour player, what they need is someone less likely to make them feel intimadated, they can relate to and just help them be better regardless of what the pro shoots in a nothing pro am event. Most club pros don't play events anyway as they spend more time teaching than practising.

Look at Phil Kenyon absolute putting guru to some huge stars never been there and done it himself but the likes of Justin Rose seek him out to improve them.

 

[Parsaregood]

The how someone looks argument again we had months ago. Your judging ability on what you see not what the person knows. Hany Rambod a relatively short and looks out of shape american trainer were he to be judged on appearance would make no money, yet had created the physiques of Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Jeremy Buendia with a combined 15 Mr Olympic titles between them, because they base their learning in his knowledge not how he looks.

Likewise someone may look at me 5 foot 6 and athletic and think I'm not the guy that they want to pack onmuscle and get bodybuilding ready for example yet I've coached many athlete to pro level body building but I haven't ever stood on stage, because my knowledge is more important thab my own physique to my client's.

I understand your point you're a visual learner and that's fine for you as is to have your opinion on what you feel looks bad as a coach. Yet I'd say a huge majority of people taking lessons don't need a former tour player, what they need is someone less likely to make them feel intimadated, they can relate to and just help them be better regardless of what the pro shoots in a nothing pro am event. Most club pros don't play events anyway as they spend more time teaching than practising.

Look at Phil Kenyon absolute putting guru to some huge stars never been there and done it himself but the likes of Justin Rose seek him out to improve them.

I'd wager Phil Kenyon can actually putt much like Dave peltz can pitch,chip and putt with the best of them. If something is your profession, have pride in it, I take pride in my work. If your going to play a pro am, the amateur guys often pay good money to play, it's only fair to at least take some pride in how you perform as a pro.

 

[Wolf]

I'd wager Phil Kenyon can actually putt much like Dave peltz can pitch,chip and putt with the best of them. If something is your profession, have pride in it, I take pride in my work. If your going to play a pro am, the amateur guys often pay good money to play, it's only fair to at least take some pride in how you perform as a pro.

I understand your point totally, but has Phil Kenyon been there and done it no he hasn't so that's a little flawed in your argument.

But again you don't seem to be able to disassociate teaching ability from play ability or difference between a playing Pro and a teaching Professional. They are very different job roles and both are professional in their own right for different reasons. But I'm not going to even bother to try and convince you otherwise as everyone has different view's.

Be a very strange pro golf tour though if these lesser club pros as you seem them didn't exist as who would have taught the kids to do things the right way in the first place. Because tour players would be to busy playing to teach..... And on that note I bid you a good day

 

[bobmac]

There's not enough hours in the day to be a good club pro and a tour pro, they're 2 different jobs.
One spends all day practicing and playing while the other spends all day in the shop and teaching.

I wonder how good a tour pro would be if he had to spend 50-60 hours a week in the pro shop

 

[Parsaregood]

There's not enough hours in the day to be a good club pro and a tour pro, they're 2 different jobs.
One spends all day practicing and playing while the other spends all day in the shop and teaching.

I wonder how good a tour pro would be if he had to spend 50-60 hours a week in the pro shop

Nobody said anybody had to be a tour pro, just the ability to demonstrate and use proper techniques whilst not playing like an 8 handicap on a poor day. Every amateur golfer works yet still manages to squeeze a little golf in, that excuse is just from club pros who quite frankly cant be bothered with the game

 

[Biggleswade Blue]

There's not enough hours in the day to be a good club pro and a tour pro, they're 2 different jobs.
One spends all day practicing and playing while the other spends all day in the shop and teaching.

I wonder how good a tour pro would be if he had to spend 50-60 hours a week in the pro shop

I agree. If someone can give a great lesson, run a good shop and do the other things a club pro does, who cares what they play off?

It's a bit like sports punditry - the trend is for ex-players to do it. Some are ok, some are not. And it means that other's who are great commentators and pundits don't ever get the chance. Brian Johnston, John Motson, Des Lynam, Barry Davies etc would not get a job these days! cf Football Managers

 

[bobmac]

Nobody said anybody had to be a tour pro, just the ability to demonstrate and use proper techniques whilst not playing like an 8 handicap on a poor day. Every amateur golfer works yet still manages to squeeze a little golf in, that excuse is just from club pros who quite frankly cant be bothered with the game

40 hours a week and weekends off.
The pro
7.30am till 7pm, then teaching then home to see the kids before their bed time. Monday off.

 

[Parsaregood]

40 hours a week and weekends off.
The pro
7.30am till 7pm, then teaching then home to see the kids before their bed time. Monday off.

It's hardly physical labour running a shop, I honestly have to laugh, also most have assistants or shop assistants to assist with day to day duties.

 

[bobmac]

It's hardly physical labour running a shop, I honestly have to laugh, also most have assistants or shop assistants to assist with day to day duties.

As you seem to know my job better than me, I'm out

 

[Parsaregood]

As you seem to know my job better than me, I'm out

As someone who is at a club most days, works as a tree surgeon and still spends time practicing. Really dont know how you can honestly tell me your average club pro cant spare 45 minutes every couple of days to hit a few balls etc, most have at least 2 assistants. I am self employed, have all the hassle with running a business etc, married have a kid yet I still spare an hour a day or night to hit balls or chip and putt and I can assure you my job is alot more physically taxing than running a pro shop, I worked in a shop for years whilst I was a student. You might die of boredom but certainly not exhaustion.

 

[User20204]

It's hardly physical labour running a shop, I honestly have to laugh, also most have assistants or shop assistants to assist with day to day duties.

I was kinda with you for a while til the above comment. Our pro works 70+ hours a week, 7 days he's there, much rather him than me that's for sure, and he has two kids below school age.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm a visual learner, I learn by copying things and watching. I just happen to think it's not very professional to play off a 4 h/cap turn pro and hardly be able to break 80 the rest of your days. I just feel there has to be a bit of pride involved. The PT scenario was meaning if the PT was out of shape, it doesn't look professional and neither does a pga pro who cant play golf to a half decent standard

I find it very dismissive to say a pro can hardly beat 80. I know a lot of good club pros locally who often play in pro-ams and shoot good scores. Both our pros rarely play or practice but both have posted sub-par rounds in recent rounds in competition. For me I'd rather be taught by a good teaching professional who has worked hard to learn how to teach, is up to date on the latest teaching ideas and has a way of getting points across and to stick rather than a so called top player who can't articulate the method

 

[Parsaregood]

I find it very dismissive to say a pro can hardly beat 80. I know a lot of good club pros locally who often play in pro-ams and shoot good scores. Both our pros rarely play or practice but both have posted sub-par rounds in recent rounds in competition. For me I'd rather be taught by a good teaching professional who has worked hard to learn how to teach, is up to date on the latest teaching ideas and has a way of getting points across and to stick rather than a so called top player who can't articulate the method

If you go on to the pgabi.bluegolf site you can see what alot of them are shooting Also I'll just make it clear I see a coach every month and as good as he is he cant tell me anything I dont already know, all he does is make sure I dont get into any bad habits or if he sees something he doesn't like he will question why I'm doing it or if I know I'm doing it. I probably spend around £400 a year on coaching so more likely more than most though I'm very selective about who I take information from. Even tiger woods says he disregarded probably 95% of what a coach told him and did what felt good and worked for him.

 

[r0wly86]

Visual learning is all well and good, however unless you are very talented then what you think you are doing and what you are actually doing are very different things indeed.

I have seen very low handicap golfers see themselves on video for the first time and they are amazed, their swing looks nothing like they thought it did.

So you say that you learn by watching another persons swing, but what you will need at some point it someone with trained eye to look at you swing and see where it isn't quite right and teach you how to fix it. That is your teaching pro.. They w

The other thing is I know lots of very talented sports people, when I ask them about their technique they don't really know what they are doing. They have a lot of natural talent and do the sports naturally, they don't have a understanding of what the body is doing as any particular point.

A good teacher will know not only what a good swing should look like, but more importantly how to get the student to adopt that swing. Which is the hardest part of all.

Look at the most successful coaches of all time in other sports, rarely were they the best players in the world. They were very good players but more importantly had a very good understanding of the mechanics involved in the sport. One of the best pace bowling coaches in cricket is Ian Pont who was a middling professional but has a superb understanding of the biomechanics, worked hard to increase his knowledge once his playing career was over and has the ability to translate his knowledge into a way that others can understand.

Just like if I was struggling with an exam in law, I would seek the wisdom of law lecturer and not a practicing barrister. If I want to improve my golf I seek out a teaching pro not a tour pro (not that a tour pro would teach me of course)