Tour Golf v PGA Golf

[Parsaregood]

Visual learning is all well and good, however unless you are very talented then what you think you are doing and what you are actually doing are very different things indeed.

I have seen very low handicap golfers see themselves on video for the first time and they are amazed, their swing looks nothing like they thought it did.

So you say that you learn by watching another persons swing, but what you will need at some point it someone with trained eye to look at you swing and see where it isn't quite right and teach you how to fix it. That is your teaching pro.. They w

The other thing is I know lots of very talented sports people, when I ask them about their technique they don't really know what they are doing. They have a lot of natural talent and do the sports naturally, they don't have a understanding of what the body is doing as any particular point.

A good teacher will know not only what a good swing should look like, but more importantly how to get the student to adopt that swing. Which is the hardest part of all.

Look at the most successful coaches of all time in other sports, rarely were they the best players in the world. They were very good players but more importantly had a very good understanding of the mechanics involved in the sport. One of the best pace bowling coaches in cricket is Ian Pont who was a middling professional but has a superb understanding of the biomechanics, worked hard to increase his knowledge once his playing career was over and has the ability to translate his knowledge into a way that others can understand.

Just like if I was struggling with an exam in law, I would seek the wisdom of law lecturer and not a practicing barrister. If I want to improve my golf I seek out a teaching pro not a tour pro (not that a tour pro would teach me of course)

I'm at a stage of my golfing life where I know what works for me and how to get the best results from my swing which is what me and the guy I give and see currently stick to. Sure I could video my swing and not bother seeing him and probably be no worse off but it gives me a small comfort level just having confirmation. I still think watching the best players play certain shots is the best way to learn, I go to open practice days and try and take as many videos of guys chipping and pitching as possible. Your part about a good teacher getting a player to adopt a swing he wants them too is bull imo, a good teacher for me would look at the physical limitations or not of the player, look at what they bring to the table and get the best out of that.

 

[r0wly86]

I'm at a stage of my golfing life where I know what works for me and how to get the best results from my swing which is what me and the guy I give and see currently stick to. Sure I could video my swing and not bother seeing him and probably be no worse off but it gives me a small comfort level just having confirmation. I still think watching the best players play certain shots is the best way to learn, I go to open practice days and try and take as many videos of guys chipping and pitching as possible. Your part about a good teacher getting a player to adopt a swing he wants them too is bull imo, a good teacher for me would look at the physical limitations or not of the player, look at what they bring to the table and get the best out of that.

It was an incomplete thought, a good teacher should be able to identify the natural swing of the pupil and adjust it so it is at its best.

But the point still stands you may be able to look at a tour pro, see what they do, identify what you have to do to match it, but actually getting your body to do the same thing is very difficult. If it were easy we would all be scratch golfers or better making money from the game.

I do some rugby coaching, and when you are teaching people and show them what to do, you'll be amazed how many people think they are copying you exactly when in fact it looks nothing like it. Even as something as simple as the arm position in a push pass, how to hold the ball and outside elbow bent. It's a very simple thing, yet people do something completely different.

Likewise with golf, you may think you are copying the tour pros chipping technique but I'd put money on that you are not doing it properly. This will result in poor shots and you not knowing why.

I had a chipping lesson on Monday, pro just wanted me to hit a few to see what I was doing, I caught them well, they went where I wanted them to go with some nice spin. Immediately he knew what my bad shot was, and said I bet you chunk a lot of chips. Because he knows the mechanics, he know what the body position should be as impact, and has the experience of 100s of students before doing a variety things including of what I was doing.

"I'm at a stage of my golfing life where I know what works for me and how to get the best results from my swing"

If you believe that you have nothing left to learn then to be honest you are fooling yourself, the greatest players that have ever lived in all sports always strived to improve and get better which included getting coached

 

[Parsaregood]

It was an incomplete thought, a good teacher should be able to identify the natural swing of the pupil and adjust it so it is at its best.

But the point still stands you may be able to look at a tour pro, see what they do, identify what you have to do to match it, but actually getting your body to do the same thing is very difficult. If it were easy we would all be scratch golfers or better making money from the game.

I do some rugby coaching, and when you are teaching people and show them what to do, you'll be amazed how many people think they are copying you exactly when in fact it looks nothing like it. Even as something as simple as the arm position in a push pass, how to hold the ball and outside elbow bent. It's a very simple thing, yet people do something completely different.

Likewise with golf, you may think you are copying the tour pros chipping technique but I'd put money on that you are not doing it properly. This will result in poor shots and you not knowing why.

I had a chipping lesson on Monday, pro just wanted me to hit a few to see what I was doing, I caught them well, they went where I wanted them to go with some nice spin. Immediately he knew what my bad shot was, and said I bet you chunk a lot of chips. Because he knows the mechanics, he know what the body position should be as impact, and has the experience of 100s of students before doing a variety things including of what I was doing.

"I'm at a stage of my golfing life where I know what works for me and how to get the best results from my swing"

If you believe that you have nothing left to learn then to be honest you are fooling yourself, the greatest players that have ever lived in all sports always strived to improve and get better which included getting coached

I play off plus 1 mate so a poor chip or pitch to me is probably not bad for your average club golfer, it's all relative. It doesn't matter how something looks, the ball doesn't care how it looks, the only thing it cares about is swing path/face to path and attack angle. Never been a guy for trying to chase a perfect position, quickest way to ruin your golf game imo. Do what works

 

[Foxholer]

That’s my view. Europro plays some pretty average courses.

The bit about not putting on ‘these’ greens though. That did make me laugh

I used to belong to (and play most days at) a Club where Mark Brown rented an apartment when he had his European Tour card - and could play gratis on the course. He would never putt out when he played the course, though he was happy to use the practice green (that happened to be generally better/noticeably faster). I believe a couple of the other Euro Tour Pros (who also used the club gratis) normally did the same. I believe the reasoning was more about not getting into a 'negative' mindset trying to make putts where the surface was not up to Tour standard.

 

[Foxholer]

...
Also we had the Jamega tour (a developmental tour) at my club recently and the winning score over two rounds was -8 so the notion that these low level pros can't shoot decent scores to win sounds like him simply boasting. A lot of local pro-ams are won with scores well under par and yes, some pros will chop it round well over par, but isn't that the same at any event and its just a matter of scale?

You are talking about WINNING scores. And while several of the top guys on Jamega are fairly consistent, they are not (near to) winning EVERY outing. The comments about what Tour Pros should be scoring is about EVERY ONE of THEIR rounds! I know (well, knew) a compatriat Pro of the bunch that played at Camberley when it was THE place where Tour Pros (Woosnam and Co) played recreationally (he came 2nd to Vijay Singh one year on the overall Sunshine Tour). His/their view was that 6-8 under was the level that was 'required' every round at a good standard club course.

Most recent Pros who head to Challenge Tour turn Pro off around +5. This is compared to the level I believe (I could be out of date) 'required' for acceptance for the PGA Pro course of 4 - 9 shots per round more!

 

[Parsaregood]

It was an incomplete thought, a good teacher should be able to identify the natural swing of the pupil and adjust it so it is at its best.

But the point still stands you may be able to look at a tour pro, see what they do, identify what you have to do to match it, but actually getting your body to do the same thing is very difficult. If it were easy we would all be scratch golfers or better making money from the game.

I do some rugby coaching, and when you are teaching people and show them what to do, you'll be amazed how many people think they are copying you exactly when in fact it looks nothing like it. Even as something as simple as the arm position in a push pass, how to hold the ball and outside elbow bent. It's a very simple thing, yet people do something completely different.

Likewise with golf, you may think you are copying the tour pros chipping technique but I'd put money on that you are not doing it properly. This will result in poor shots and you not knowing why.

I had a chipping lesson on Monday, pro just wanted me to hit a few to see what I was doing, I caught them well, they went where I wanted them to go with some nice spin. Immediately he knew what my bad shot was, and said I bet you chunk a lot of chips. Because he knows the mechanics, he know what the body position should be as impact, and has the experience of 100s of students before doing a variety things including of what I was doing.

"I'm at a stage of my golfing life where I know what works for me and how to get the best results from my swing"

If you believe that you have nothing left to learn then to be honest you are fooling yourself, the greatest players that have ever lived in all sports always strived to improve and get better which included getting coached

Also meaning I know what works for me and what is best for my swing is different than to say if I changed my swing this may be better or I could improve the consistency of this, I simply realise I'm no longer prepared to go through the hassle of major changes to maybe see an improvement here and probably run into countless other issues, been there done it got the tshirt

 

[HomerJSimpson]

You are talking about WINNING scores. And while several of the top guys on Jamega are fairly consistent, they are not (near to) winning EVERY outing. The comments about what Tour Pros should be scoring is about EVERY ONE of THEIR rounds! I know (well, knew) a compatriat Pro of the bunch that played at Camberley when it was THE place where Tour Pros (Woosnam and Co) played recreationally (he came 2nd to Vijay Singh one year on the overall Sunshine Tour). His/their view was that 6-8 under was the level that was 'required' every round at a good standard club course.

Most recent Pros who head to Challenge Tour turn Pro off around +5. This is compared to the level I believe (I could be out of date) 'required' for acceptance for the PGA Pro course of 4 - 9 shots per round more!

The winning score (it was actually won on a play-off after two tied) was -8 but there were a host of players sub par. I play with an ex Sunshine Tour player as well (who is at the English Seniors event as well) and played with a lot of the top guys of the time and he'll tell you different and not matter what the "required" standard at any course and at any event was, these guys don't hit it every time. When Brett Rumford was using the club to work on his game he'd say he had a figure in mind for the cut each week and knew when his swing was on enough to compete and when he would be looking at the cut and a pay day. Peter O'Malley is also a regular visitor in the summer when he's over on the senior circuit and he says similar that he knows his good and back weeks.

 

[r0wly86]

I play off plus 1 mate so a poor chip or pitch to me is probably not bad for your average club golfer, it's all relative. It doesn't matter how something looks, the ball doesn't care how it looks, the only thing it cares about is swing path/face to path and attack angle. Never been a guy for trying to chase a perfect position, quickest way to ruin your golf game imo. Do what works

It doesn't matter what you play off. Tiger, Rory, DJ, Rose all have coaches. Are you as good as them? You already say you try and improve, just not with a teacher.

Also meaning I know what works for me and what is best for my swing is different than to say if I changed my swing this may be better or I could improve the consistency of this, I simply realise I'm no longer prepared to go through the hassle of major changes to maybe see an improvement here and probably run into countless other issues, been there done it got the tshirt

It doesn't have to be a major swing change, it could be a very minor thing, that you cannot see of feel yourself but an experienced coach could.

Whether you want to use one it beside the point. Your initial argument is that as you were a visual learner then coaches are no good and you are better off learning from watching a tour pro. My point is that if you wanted to learn then visual learner or not a coach is better than self taught 99.9% of the time as what people believe their body is doing is not what their body is actually doing and so a good coach can spot this

 

[Foxholer]

The winning score (it was actually won on a play-off after two tied) was -8 but there were a host of players sub par. I play with an ex Sunshine Tour player as well (who is at the English Seniors event as well) and played with a lot of the top guys of the time and he'll tell you different and not matter what the "required" standard at any course and at any event was, these guys don't hit it every time. When Brett Rumford was using the club to work on his game he'd say he had a figure in mind for the cut each week and knew when his swing was on enough to compete and when he would be looking at the cut and a pay day. Peter O'Malley is also a regular visitor in the summer when he's over on the senior circuit and he says similar that he knows his good and back weeks.

While I agree with much of the above, it doesn't alter the fact that Tour Pros are a significant step (or several even) above 'normal' PGA Pros - or even those aspiring to be Tour Pros!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

While I agree with much of the above, it doesn't alter the fact that Tour Pros are a significant step (or several even) above 'normal' PGA Pros - or even those aspiring to be Tour Pros!

And I agree that there is still a huge gulf between tour pros and the rest but was responding to the point that many of these club pro's rarely beat par and rack up scores towards the 80's which while will happen (no different in context to a tour pro missing a cut) they aren't perhaps as poor players and some are suggesting