UtopianAsh
New member
Very good read, thanks for posting.
Tour Golf v PGA Golf
- Thread starter Crazyface
- Start date
Very good read, thanks for posting.
Played behind Scott Hend at Royal Dornoch on a windy day, he shot 3 under with two lost balls off the back. They had the Northern open a few weeks before and only one guy was under par
Dibby
Assistant Pro
I don't think it necessarily does back up the comment.
The course may be easy, but you have to factor in what you are playing for. When practising or playing a monthly medal, the pressure will be nowhere near trying to play for a living. The guys that shot high scores may shoot ridiculously low with the exact same course conditions minus tournament pressure. Point being they don't lack skill, just the ability to execute that skill when the pressure ramps up.
Canfordhacker
Q-School Graduate
Some interesting views here. I played in a club comp at my home course with a guy off 1 and a guy off +2 a few weeks ago, and that was a real eye opened. It took me 4 holes to adjust to the flight, shape and speed so I could watch their tee shots from tee to landing. Short games were amazing.
We have a Europro tour event coming to us in June - I am booked to play in the pro am and looking forward to seeing if there is another level. It will be interesting to see how they tackle our course. 6900 yards off the blues, par 71, SSS 73, and also what they think of the greens. It will also be interesting to see how the course looks on TV - cameras will be there for the main three days and I believe they do a summary show on Sky shortly after.
We have a Europro tour event coming to us in June - I am booked to play in the pro am and looking forward to seeing if there is another level. It will be interesting to see how they tackle our course. 6900 yards off the blues, par 71, SSS 73, and also what they think of the greens. It will also be interesting to see how the course looks on TV - cameras will be there for the main three days and I believe they do a summary show on Sky shortly after.
Parsaregood
Head Pro
Required several hours of practice per day to stay at the level of a 4 handicap or under, if they were lower than plus 2 your point might be valid but to be honest I know a fair few plus handicap golfers who rarely if ever practice and just play 2 or 3 times a week. There is always the case some just didn't play very well on a particular day, they might still be half cut from the night before or whatever but the practice thing is just a poor excuse. I honestly cant stand the pga pros who turned pro off of 4 and have never won anything in there life, the pga should make it harder and lower the handicap criteria for potential professionals, some of them are just not very good golfers in reality and no better than your average 4 or 5 handicapper at your local club
Grant85
Head Pro
Most club pros I've engaged with have been good amateur players and aspirations of playing for a living. Those guys would have been practising a lot when competing in amateur events at county / national level.
Appreciate the guys who turned pro off 4 handicap and will have had virtually no chance of making any living from playing golf but were probably thinking of going down the PGA Pro route at that point.
In reality, it's a different skill set being a tour pro compared with a PGA pro. The latter has only to be a 'good' golfer, the former obviously has to be exceptional. For a PGA pro, clearly providing tuition, running a small business, complimenting 18 handicappers about how well they are hitting the ball etc is more important. Obviously if they were good enough at golf, they'd be playing golf for a living.
Don't really see the point in changing the handicap criteria. At the end of the day, that is only one criteria, and arguably one of the least important.
I'd certainly rather have a lesson from a PGA Pro who turned pro at -4 and has been teaching handicap golfer for 10 years than a Tour Pro who has been out on tour for 10 years.
Parsaregood
Head Pro
I can assure you most pga pros have been nowhere near the national or county scene, I know various county players and most of them hardly practice, alot of them are just pretty talented but lack the work ethic of what it takes to become a tour player. Yes alot do practice a fair bit if they have aspirations of making it but most pro's that were any good wouldn't have even worked in a pro shop or turned pro until they realised they couldn't make it, most stay amateur for as long as possible.
UlyssesSky
Head Pro
He's not a tour pro. He is someone who would like to play on tour but until now was never good enough to qualify.
Anybody who has ever been to a tour event can tell you that's definitely not the case.
As do amateurs when playing on a dried out links course. For all other courses, see above.
That actually makes him seem more pretentious than professional. Most actual tour pros probably would never say something like that. Plus most actual tour pros are probably good enough to play on not so perfect greens anyways..
That's because the playing ability test (PAT) requires a score of +12 or better for 36 holes. Saying PGA Pros can't play golf is like saying Jürgen Klopp can't play as well as Salah. The comparison is just stupid.
Like others said before, if you shoot your H/C more often than you don't, your H/C probably isn't right.
All in all, the guy seems like someone who isn't just as good as he thinks he is and has to make up for his lack of success by talking bad about others so he can still feel good about himself.
The fact that he is actually working in a pro shop himself makes this hole thing so much more funny...
Italian outcast
Hacker
Our club pro was playing behind us yesterday
Toughest hole on the course - 185 yard uphill par 3 guarded by a huge bunker on LHS and a lake on the RHS
Either he or the 24 handicap lady he was giving a on-course playing lesson to hit it to 3 foot !
Toughest hole on the course - 185 yard uphill par 3 guarded by a huge bunker on LHS and a lake on the RHS
Either he or the 24 handicap lady he was giving a on-course playing lesson to hit it to 3 foot !
Biggleswade Blue
Head Pro
I played with Ewen Ferguson a few weeks ago at Woburn. I have also played with single figure club golfers. I play off 20-odd. I reckon I am closer in ability to a single figure handicapper (and I know that I am not close at all!), than the single figure player is to a good ET/CT tour pro.
I have no evidence to support this - just what it looks like.
I have no evidence to support this - just what it looks like.
Crazyface
Tour Winner
It's not my course. Mines harder!
Lazkir
Head Pro
Have to agree, they're different gravy!
Good to see him finish in 3rd place at the Belgian Knockout last week.
Crazyface
Tour Winner
He's not a tour pro. He is someone who would like to play on tour but until now was never good enough to qualify.
Anybody who has ever been to a tour event can tell you that's definitely not the case.
As do amateurs when playing on a dried out links course. For all other courses, see above.
That actually makes him seem more pretentious than professional. Most actual tour pros probably would never say something like that. Plus most actual tour pros are probably good enough to play on not so perfect greens anyways..
That's because the playing ability test (PAT) requires a score of +12 or better for 36 holes. Saying PGA Pros can't play golf is like saying Jürgen Klopp can't play as well as Salah. The comparison is just stupid.
Like others said before, if you shoot your H/C more often than you don't, your H/C probably isn't right.
All in all, the guy seems like someone who isn't just as good as he thinks he is and has to make up for his lack of success by talking bad about others so he can still feel good about himself.
The fact that he is actually working in a pro shop himself makes this hole thing so much more funny...
Seems a fair arguement. I was only report what he said for discussion on here. The SS where he is, is less than the par, so the course is rated as a tad easier than it's par.
r0wly86
Head Pro
I remember hearing that the difference between a teaching pro and a Tour pro is about the same as a teaching pro and an average club player.
To be fair though as someone else has pointed out teaching pros just don't practice anything like what is required to keep at a pro level.
Most teaching pros I know were of a level where they could have made it (low level tour pro), but for whatever reason didn't, and so went and became a teaching pro. After that they get older and don't practice as they don't have the time and by then new young golfers with talent come up.
To be fair though as someone else has pointed out teaching pros just don't practice anything like what is required to keep at a pro level.
Most teaching pros I know were of a level where they could have made it (low level tour pro), but for whatever reason didn't, and so went and became a teaching pro. After that they get older and don't practice as they don't have the time and by then new young golfers with talent come up.
We have a t least 5 guys at ours who are Ex Pro's, all but one were promising amateurs, who turned pro and failed to make it playing all were +3 at least before turning pro and have all more or less returned to that level as Ams again. The one who was a PGA pro who worked for a Golf retailer down in England somewhere, and is now Am he floats between 3 and 4
Sports_Fanatic
Assistant Pro
I find the Monday Q info on Twitter staggering on how low the pros have to go at events. Admittedly a different mindset for the true Monday Qualifiers as it's a one round shootout so birdies are the only focus unlike the actual pro 4 day comp.
Couple of recent tweets:
"Want to be a pro golfer? Rex Hospital Open edition
Were you under par all 4 rnds? "Yes"
Did you go bogey free last 52 holes? "Yes"
Did you go 18 under in those 52? "Yes"
Did you birdie half your holes Sunday and shoot a closing 61? "Yes"
Did you win? "Nope lost by 3""
And
How much depth is there in pro golf? James Allenby edition. 64-63-61-61-68-63 Those are Allenby's last 6 competitve rounds, including today's 63 on@PGATOURCanada -Combined 51 under -More Eagles 7, then bogeys 6 - Avg 63.3 -birdie or better on 46.2% of holes #goodlord
Couple of recent tweets:
"Want to be a pro golfer? Rex Hospital Open edition
Were you under par all 4 rnds? "Yes"
Did you go bogey free last 52 holes? "Yes"
Did you go 18 under in those 52? "Yes"
Did you birdie half your holes Sunday and shoot a closing 61? "Yes"
Did you win? "Nope lost by 3""
And
How much depth is there in pro golf? James Allenby edition. 64-63-61-61-68-63 Those are Allenby's last 6 competitve rounds, including today's 63 on
Wolf
Well-known member
One thing always makes me chuckle is hearing people complain about PGA pro and how easy it is to get to 4 etc, I got to that level and was going to do my diploma till life got in the way, now because of lack of time and practise and it takes a lot to get even to that level I'm struggling to stay around an 8 handicap..
However my point really is this, I grew up with guys that got to +4 tried Out on Euro Pro tour and didn't cut it. Another who got a US Scholarship, qualified for the open and made the cut, yet now works as a property developer because the next step was even bigger. Another lad played Walker Cup, won Lytham trophy, Spanish Am, won on Challenge tour and failed on European tour and now is in obscurity somewhere trying to figure the game out and how to get back to a top level because at every step the game got harder, the higher level he went such is the gulf in class even at the varying Pro levels.
I also grew up with guys who got to 4 handicap, took their PAT did their PGA diploma and have been successfully teaching the game to club players for many years, one is head pro at a fellow forumers club, another is now the head coach for the England teams such is his ability to teach the game. When you read back through this post who do you think has ultimately had the longest success as a career in the game of Golf? It's the guys that are PGA pro teaching the game to like minded souls that aren't tour players but through their teaching club players they keep them in the game and enjoying it.
The gulf in ability between us and the PGA pro is less than that of the varying levels in Pro ranks as they increase but that's kind of the point isn't it. After all the role of PGA pro isn't to be as good as the tour player its to help club players improve, introduce youth into the game with good fundamentals and be an ambassador for our clubs..
However my point really is this, I grew up with guys that got to +4 tried Out on Euro Pro tour and didn't cut it. Another who got a US Scholarship, qualified for the open and made the cut, yet now works as a property developer because the next step was even bigger. Another lad played Walker Cup, won Lytham trophy, Spanish Am, won on Challenge tour and failed on European tour and now is in obscurity somewhere trying to figure the game out and how to get back to a top level because at every step the game got harder, the higher level he went such is the gulf in class even at the varying Pro levels.
I also grew up with guys who got to 4 handicap, took their PAT did their PGA diploma and have been successfully teaching the game to club players for many years, one is head pro at a fellow forumers club, another is now the head coach for the England teams such is his ability to teach the game. When you read back through this post who do you think has ultimately had the longest success as a career in the game of Golf? It's the guys that are PGA pro teaching the game to like minded souls that aren't tour players but through their teaching club players they keep them in the game and enjoying it.
The gulf in ability between us and the PGA pro is less than that of the varying levels in Pro ranks as they increase but that's kind of the point isn't it. After all the role of PGA pro isn't to be as good as the tour player its to help club players improve, introduce youth into the game with good fundamentals and be an ambassador for our clubs..
Last edited:
Parsaregood
Head Pro
The problem is they have pro in front of their name, if they go and play a tournament and shoot 82 maybe have a few results like that, people notice and think God that guy isn't very good. If you go to a personal trainer and they are a bit pudgy, their knowledge could ge fantastic but at the end of the day if they cant practice what they preach it's not professional. If there are 2 pro's and one has played on the tour at one point or another and the other hasn't but is a head pro I'd give and see the one with high level experience. I could beat the head pro more often than he could beat me in most cases, I learn off people who do something better than I do, not tell me how to or how something should look but they cant actually do it themselves.
D
Deleted member 21258
Guest
Cant help to take that further with your thinking and why did Tiger ever goto a coach, for example Butch Harmon....Tiger is a far better golfer than Butch and Butch can not do what Tiger can do, so how can Tiger have learnt anything from Butch?
Wolf
Well-known member
Your case in point is very insular though and not what the majority of club players face..
Just because you can only learn off someone better than you is based o. Your own interpretations, it does not mean others aren't good coaches just because they don't play to a higher ability.
Just because someone can play doesn't mean they can teach, just because someone can teach doesn't mean they can play.. Your example of personal trainer is brilliant because I am one as well as a strength an conditioning coach. Can I lift as much as some of my professional athlete clients no I can't but does that mean I can't coach them to correct technique or how to become stronger, leaner, fitter or faster.. No it doesn't because like the club pro I'm not paid for my ability to out lift someone but for the knowledge I posses to help them improve their sporting performance, which I do regularly for sports people, athlete, body builders, power lifters etc..
The ability to teach and demonstrate isn't about how good the teacher performs v the pupil, it's about the teacher imparting the correct knowledge in a way the pupil can learn, assimilate and improve..
Tour pros getter better because they have a coach that can guide them through processes, drills and learning, yet they can't shoot the lights out themselves. Koepka has Claude Harmon who helps him yet Claude isn't good enough to win a US Open or PGA but he can breakdown Brooks technique and feedback what he needs when he needs it..
