Tiger cheating!

[Imurg]

The PGA etc don't mind making an example of the smaller players - just look at what the officials did to Tiang last year when other players were just as slow as he was

There was a huge misunderstanding over this episode..
Many players get put "on the clock". The vast majority speed up enough to get "off the clock" - therefore they don't get a penalty.
Tiang got put on the clock but didn't speed up so got pinged.
2 players can take the same time to get round a course, 1 can get a penalty and the other might not.
It's all about what you do while you're on the clock.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There was a huge misunderstanding over this episode..
Many players get put "on the clock". The vast majority speed up enough to get "off the clock" - therefore they don't get a penalty.
Tiang got put on the clock but didn't speed up so got pinged.
2 players can take the same time to get round a course, 1 can get a penalty and the other might not.
It's all about what you do while you're on the clock.

It was also him being put on the clock when others dont get put on the clock - Mickleson for example in that Masters should have been put on the clock - if using the example for Tiang then multiple players should have been put on the clock. He was an easy target - the Masters officials let themselves down badly last year imo

 

[Imurg]

It was also him being put on the clock when others dont get put on the clock - Mickleson for example in that Masters should have been put on the clock - if using the example for Tiang then multiple players should have been put on the clock. He was an easy target - the Masters officials let themselves down badly last year imo

They probably were put on the clock, they just got a bit of a lick on for a hole and a half and got taken off it again.
Players are getting put on the clock all the time.
You also have to take into account why they're going slowly. If the group in front is going slow, how can the group behind be penalised if they're keeping up..?

 

[Foxholer]

Wasn't it one of the Saltman brothers that got a ban for something similar?

It was Elliot!

That was for repeatedly marking it (close to the ball) at '8 o'clock' (slightly left of exactly behind), then replacing it at '6 o'clock' (exactly behind). Getting closer wasn't significant, but shifting it to avoid a spike mark (there were plenty) was!

That's a reasonably common attribute of Tiger - tetchily just chuck the marker down as a strop - but the times I've seen it, he's always replaced the ball in exactly the correct spot. So I agree that the Thread Title should change - at least to a '?' rather than a '!'.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

They probably were put on the clock, they just got a bit of a lick on for a hole and a half and got taken off it again.
Players are getting put on the clock all the time.
You also have to take into account why they're going slowly. If the group in front is going slow, how can the group behind be penalised if they're keeping up..?

yeah totally understand that mate and seen it happen ( at the Welsh Open for example )

But players were actually put on the clock at the Masters last year and people actually recorded and timed ( as they do ) certain players time over each shot - lets just say Tiang was nowhere near the worse - with some players taking minutes over each shot ( for a fair amoutn of the round )

 

[bozza]

It was Elliot!

That was for repeatedly marking it (close to the ball) at '8 o'clock' (slightly left of exactly behind), then replacing it at '6 o'clock' (exactly behind). Getting closer wasn't significant, but shifting it to avoid a spike mark (there were plenty) was!

That's a reasonably common attribute of Tiger - tetchily just chuck the marker down as a strop - but the times I've seen it, he's always replaced the ball in exactly the correct spot. So I agree that the Thread Title should change - at least to a '?' rather than a '!'.

So you can tell by TV coverage he has placed the ball exactly in the same spot as his ball was even if his marker was nowhere near it?

I'm sorry but I don't think you can.

 

[Foxholer]

It was also him being put on the clock when others dont get put on the clock - Mickleson for example in that Masters should have been put on the clock - if using the example for Tiang then multiple players should have been put on the clock. He was an easy target - the Masters officials let themselves down badly last year imo

I think you might be mis-understanding how the 'put on the Clock' process works!

Imurg's post infers it, but.....

It's the Group that gets put on the clock first - as there's no ability to check, at that stage, which player caused the hold-up. Once on the clock, each player is timed and, if warranted, a penalty is issued. There's actually another 'Warning' step in there as well, so plenty of opportunity to 'improve'. In Tiang's case, he didn't heed the warning, so suffered. Not sure what, if any, Mickelson did, but if the overall group hasn't lost position, the fact that 1 player is playing slowly doesn't matter.

HTH.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think you might be mis-understanding how the 'put on the Clock' process works!

Imurg's post infers it, but.....

It's the Group that gets put on the clock first - as there's no ability to check, at that stage, which player caused the hold-up. Once on the clock, each player is timed and, if warranted, a penalty is issued. There's actually another 'Warning' step in there as well, so plenty of opportunity to 'improve'. In Tiang's case, he didn't heed the warning, so suffered. Not sure what, if any, Mickelson did, but if the overall group hasn't lost position, the fact that 1 player is playing slowly doesn't matter.

HTH.

Yeah i know - groups players etc - there were multiple of them to be found slower ( whole groups , single players etc ) than Tiang and only one other group was put on the clock during that round.

yes he was warned and was punished correctly - but the issue i have is they dont treat everyone equal - Woods drop and 2 shot penalty after the scorecard was signed is another perfect example.

They have to be fair to every single player - treat them all equally - but they dont - we know they dont

 

[Foxholer]

So you can tell by TV coverage he has placed the ball exactly in the same spot as his ball was even if his marker was nowhere near it?

I'm sorry but I don't think you can.

Well I was satisfied! I've seen it happen a few times with him, inconclusive (so benefit of doubt) on a couple, but spot on with at least 1 where there was a mark to use as reference! Was after a 'Brazilian' from 25 feet in a tournament where he was making just about every putt - not missing a putt under 10 or 12 feet!

 

[Foxholer]

They have to be fair to every single player - treat them all equally - but they dont - we know they dont

Exactly how do we know?! Do they tell us?

We might be 'pretty certain' or 'convinced', but I don't believe 'know' is strictly the case!

I'd hope the Rules were applied consistently, but every situation is slightly different. If the even slower groups were behind Tiang's (as I seem to remember was the case) they 'got lucky' by not being so slow that the 'on the Clock' process was triggered! And again, individual players can't be put on the clock until the group is! There's more logic, to me, for putting all the slow players out in the same group - that way 'on the clock' gets triggered more fairly - as opposed to upsetting a traditional quick player out with a traditionally slow one (the Rory Sabbatini/Ben crane incident is an example of how not to do it!).

 

[kinhell]

I've noticed him does this for years. He places his marker short but then places his ball next to the marker when he puts the ball down again. He cant be accused of cheating as he is always further from the hole than he originally was. I think its to avoid him nudging the ball when he puts the marker down.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Exactly how do we know?! Do they tell us?

We might be 'pretty certain' or 'convinced', but I don't believe 'know' is strictly the case!

I'd hope the Rules were applied consistently, but every situation is slightly different. If the even slower groups were behind Tiang's (as I seem to remember was the case) they 'got lucky' by not being so slow that the 'on the Clock' process was triggered! And again, individual players can't be put on the clock until the group is! There's more logic, to me, for putting all the slow players out in the same group - that way 'on the clock' gets triggered more fairly - as opposed to upsetting a traditional quick player out with a traditionally slow one (the Rory Sabbatini/Ben crane incident is an example of how not to do it!).

I believe they have to report it to the USPGA ( or is it PGA of America ( or are they the same )) any time someone is put on the clock or groups are put on the clock - to allow them to look for trends etc - but certain people or the groups they are in are never put on the clock ( according to a R&A rules guy ) but these players have been put on the clock during the first 2 rounds of the Open - Woods , Mickleson etc - even Monty ( even though he went mental afterwards because he blamed it on a poor round ).

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I've noticed him does this for years. He places his marker short but then places his ball next to the marker when he puts the ball down again. He cant be accused of cheating as he is always further from the hole than he originally was. I think its to avoid him nudging the ball when he puts the marker down.

You have noticed it for years ?

And it doesnt matter if he is further away or closer - he still must place it in the original position and if he doesnt must occur the correct penalty

 

[bozza]

I've noticed him does this for years. He places his marker short but then places his ball next to the marker when he puts the ball down again. He cant be accused of cheating as he is always further from the hole than he originally was. I think its to avoid him nudging the ball when he puts the marker down.

If he is intentionly doing this then it is cheating, it doesn't matter if you mark your ball 1" closer to the hole or 1" further away, if you don't replace your ball in the correct position then you are breaking a rule

 

[upsidedown]

If he is intentionly doing this then it is cheating, it doesn't matter if you mark your ball 1" closer to the hole or 1" further away, if you don't replace your ball in the correct position then you are breaking a rule

And Tiger has been playing for how many years and pulled up for this how many times ? Or any other player for that matter ?

 

[kinhell]

Surely he gains no advantage by putting it an inch further away? He definitely has been doing it for years as I've noticed loads of times. He chucks his silver dollar type marker close but not close enough. He could never get the ball on the same exact spot all the time. I think him being such a big name in the game everyone is too scared to say anything.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Surely he gains no advantage by putting it an inch further away? He definitely has been doing it for years as I've noticed loads of times. He chucks his silver dollar type marker close but not close enough. He could never get the ball on the same exact spot all the time. I think him being such a big name in the game everyone is too scared to say anything.

Not every rule break will mean gaining an advantage :thup:

 

[Imurg]

Surely he gains no advantage by putting it an inch further away? He definitely has been doing it for years as I've noticed loads of times. He chucks his silver dollar type marker close but not close enough. He could never get the ball on the same exact spot all the time. I think him being such a big name in the game everyone is too scared to say anything.

Advantage doesn't come into it.
If he hasn't put the ball back on the same point then it's a penalty regardless of whether the ball is closer, further away or off to one side.
I don't get all this "no advantage" stuff when rules as discussed - it's an irrelevance.
You can take an incorrect drop and put yourself in a disadvantageous position - it's still a penalty.

 

[bozza]

And Tiger has been playing for how many years and pulled up for this how many times ? Or any other player for that matter ?

One of the Saltman brothers got pulled up on it and it won't have been because someone has spotted it on tv, it would have been fellow competitors that will have raised the issue.

Can yuk honestly see the likes of Rory reporting Tiger for incorect marking of his ball.

 

[upsidedown]

One of the Saltman brothers got pulled up on it and it won't have been because someone has spotted it on tv, it would have been fellow competitors that will have raised the issue.

Can yuk honestly see the likes of Rory reporting Tiger for incorect marking of his ball.

The Saltman incident was a totally different issue in marking his ball. He was marking at 8 o clock then replacing at 6 o clock.

I'm sure there are plenty of players on Tour who'd not have have a qualm about reporting Tiger for mis marking, the fact that he hasn't been called for it suggest there is not a problem.