'Through the green'

billyg

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Does anyone know what this actually means? In the winter rules at my club it says plugs can only be lifted and placed within 6 inches of plug when 'through the green'. Ive taken it to mean ' on the fairway' but probably got it wrong. Any ideas folks?

bill
 

billyg

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It means anywhere on the course
...except greens, teeing ground and hazards.

Billy G -What a complete doughnut eh?

I dread to think what other things I'm getting wrong but I guess it's a learning curve and this forum is a great place to find out the answers.

Thanks for that

:eek:
 
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birdieman

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Shouldn't include rough either. Through the green means the cut stuff, ie: fairway and fringes, not bundu,
Incorrect - According to R&A and USGA 'through the green' does incluse the rough, it only excludes teeing ground and green of hole being played and hazards.
 

USER1999

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Sorry, my mistake. It comes through trying to understand the differnece between 'winter rules' and 'pick and place'. Neither of which are clearly defined by the rules, but form a local rule at whatever course you are playing. These sometimes mean you can mark, lift, clean, and place within 6" not nearer the hole, through the green, or, on close mown areas through the green, depending on interpretation.

My course has 'preferred lies', but does not define where or what these may be.

Appendix 1 (page 131)allows for extreme course conditions, but I am not sure when these apply, as I don't ever remember a notice regarding this on the notice board, and surely would not apply continously for the duration of 'winter rules'.

Rule 25.2 allows for relief from an embedded ball on close mown areas through the green in extreme conditions.

Part c of this appendix implies that relief would only be on closely mown areas during periods of prolonged rain, etc, and not through the whole winter.

This implies to me you would never get relief from a plugged ball in the rough, unless granted by a specific local rule, not just 'winter rules'.

I have looked at these rules before, and found them very confusing. Any one care to clarify, feel free....

I have also discussed lifting a plugged ball in the rough with numerous of our committee, and the course pro, and they all say that you can't, but may be this is just my course interpretation of a local rule.
 
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birdieman

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Tis confusing Murph. Looking at Billy G's original post if he was plugged in the rough at his course then by the rules he should be ok to get a drop - needless to say many members of his club would probably say "you can't do that" but I believe he can if the club doesn't include the wording...'through the green except in the rough'.

My reading of this rule means if you managed to top your ball so badly on the tee that somehow it plugged in the teeing area you wouldn't get relief and would have to hack it out of it's muddy crater - bet the grrenkeeper would love you!
 

USER1999

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I have always opted not to unplug in the rough, as I am never sure if this is ok under winter rules or not. In general, I am not a great one for pick and place on the fairway unless the lie is terrible, even if allowed. Doesn't seem to be fair to me, you should play as it lies. It also encourages an ability to only hit off a perfect lie.
 

billyg

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Tis confusing Murph. Looking at Billy G's original post if he was plugged in the rough at his course then by the rules he should be ok to get a drop - needless to say many members of his club would probably say "you can't do that" but I believe he can if the club doesn't include the wording...'through the green except in the rough'.

My reading of this rule means if you managed to top your ball so badly on the tee that somehow it plugged in the teeing area you wouldn't get relief and would have to hack it out of it's muddy crater - bet the grrenkeeper would love you!

Just to clarify the OP the club notice does not include the phrase 'except in the rough' in this instance.

On a braoder note, I can see both sides of the problem but paradoxically they are both respectively trumped by a desire on the one hand not to damage the course needlessly but also not to cheat.

If I DIDN'T lift and place then I would be in danger of carving the fairway/rough up. Were talking a scenario that is beyond merely a 'bad lie' but instead a ball that's top edge is lower than the surface of the soil i.e. plugged.

On the other hand to move such a ball is improving a situation which is clearly of my own making and it seems unreasonable to benefit from such.But herein lies the solution. Short of playing an 8 degree wood (or similar), a deliberate skull or a putt off each shot, it would be impossible not to get a flight that might end in a plug in such heavy conditions.

The prevailing conditions dictate that a valid stroke cannot therefore be made without invoking this risk.

I'm satisfied that in this chain of events i'm doing eveything reasonable to protect the course (and not cheat) that the rules permit me to.

I will take Birdieman's advice with a clean conscience.
 

Marko77

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This confuses me, yes, pg 42 states "through the green" is the whole area of the course except the teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played or any hazards.

This would indicate relief from a ball plugged in the rough, however, rule 25-2 on pg 102 states

a ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely-mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. "closely-mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

From that explanation I'm not sure you can take free relief in the rough (unless its a mown path in the rough?)

GM should invite a rules guru to the forum for a night of questionning :)
 

bunkered

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Most winter rules are there to protect the course, they are made up by a comm, so just ask them to clarify the winter rules that they use, you can only get relief from a plugged ball only on a closely mown area even if this might be in the rough, the rule book does not make any reference to the rough or fairway, its all through the green
 

Leftie

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I think that ....

"Through the green" is anywhere on the course other than the tee and green of the hole being played and any hazard.

"Closely mown" means any area cut to fairway height or less.

So under normal playing conditions an embedded ball on a closely mown area "through the green" may be lifted, cleaned and dropped as described rule 25-2. See also Appendix 1-4 page 131.

In addition, if a ball is embedded in abnormal ground conditions e.g. standing water "through the green" (see def above) then relief may also be taken as 25-1. The ball may not be cleaned. See also rule 25-1C. Ball lost in abnormal ground conditions. Interesting! Not a lot of people know that.

Winter Rules can implemented by the committee should abnormal playing conditions interfere with the proper playing of the course. This is usually related to course conditions experienced during the winter. These should be posted and detail under what cirumstances they apply. Usually, but not always, allow lifting, cleaning and placing on fairways, lifting cleaning and dropping embedded balls "through the green", etc. If in doubt, check.
 

viscount17

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Just had a look at 25.1c. Given the definition of 'abnormal ground conditions' it would seem that this covers the (vague) possibility of a ball disappearing down a rabbit hole, and you must be sure of that (I wouldn't think 'I'm sure it landed there' would count.)

The rules really are a bit vague in this area - no wonder certain pro's can always get an advantage. To my mind it should be a case of 'you hit it in the rough (as I often do) you take your lumps'
 

Sam

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OK we seem clearish on the definition but where do you think the expression came from? It does not really match its meaning. Sounds a bit american to me
 

viscount17

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Here's a US interpretation of the USGA definition
"Through the green" is the whole area of the course except:
a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and b. All hazards on the course.
This implies that any other tee or green is 'through the green'.

Just found this. Haven't had a chance to read it yet, for some reason they want me to <u>work</u> !
http://www.ruleshistory.com/misc.html
 
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