Thought I was in a water hazard and played a provisional, but.....

[Fish]

Only happened on Sunday in my skins/social match but I'd never come across the scenario before but I'm sure many will have at my club on this hole so it will be worth passing on once knowing the correct ruling.

Taking my tee shot on our 11th which is over the river and I decided to hook it. The river is quite far from the tee and the river comes across you and then runs up the left side slightly catching all errant drives (hooks).

The river bank to the front is blind where it runs down to the river so nobody in my group was sure of where it came to rest, so I took a provisional from the tee and was then safely on the fairway.

Even if I know it's gone into the water I never drop by the river side as its very rough so its best taking another drive (as everyone does), so when in the full knowledge its splashed, it's simply 3 off the tee.

I walked down to the bank and found my first ball, but then my PP said I couldn't play it as I'd played a provisional believing I was in a hazard!

He went to to say about a situation with Els who played an incorrect ball in this same scenario and explained what I should do or should have done.

He stated that as soon as I played the provisional that ball was now in play irrelevant of if I found my first ball as it was played due to believing it was in a hazard.

He stated if I wan't sure I should have walked down to the bank first and if the ball was found play it were it lies or if not found either drop at the point of entry or walk back to the tee to play another from the tee.

He said finding my ball and playing it meant I played an incorrect ball even though I declared a provisional.

I found this slightly strange as I always believed the provisional ball was to potentially speed up play and assist in any uncertainty, but in this case it comes across that it only slows things down and would force me to look for the ball, drop it in the rough or then walk all the way back to the tee as there's nothing but rough between the river and tee's or of course play a provisional but then not look for my ball as I wouldn't be allowed to play it anyway forcing me to play 3 off the tee.

Is this one of these daft rules that goes against the grain or......

 

[PhilTheFragger]

As long as you declared it as a provisional, then the first ball becomes the ball in play if you find it, if you find it in a hazard , then either play it as it lies or take a penalty drop.

Either way if the first ball is found, the provisional is dead

 

[DCB]

Didn't think a provisional applied to a ball lost in a water hazard.

26-1/3.5 Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule with Knowledge or Virtual Certainty; Original Ball Then Found
Q.A player's ball is struck towards a water hazard. It is known or virtually certain that the player's ball is in the water hazard, and he drops a ball under Rule 26-1b. Before he plays the dropped ball, his original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?

A.As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.

If the original ball was found in the water hazard and this discovery affects the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b, resulting in the substituted ball having been dropped in a wrong place, the player must correct the error under Rule 20-6. The player must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decisions 20-6/2 and 26-1/16). Otherwise, Rule 20-6 does not apply and the player must continue play with the dropped ball. In either case, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 26-1.

In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1).

 

[rulefan]

Didn't think a provisional applied to a ball lost in a water hazard.

He said " The river bank to the front is blind where it runs down to the river so nobody in my group was sure of where it came to rest, so I took a provisional from the tee and was then safely on the fairway.


http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2a-2.2

"Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds."

 

[Fish]

Didn't think a provisional applied to a ball lost in a water hazard.

26-1/3.5 Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule with Knowledge or Virtual Certainty; Original Ball Then Found
Q.A player's ball is struck towards a water hazard. It is known or virtually certain that the player's ball is in the water hazard, and he drops a ball under Rule 26-1b. Before he plays the dropped ball, his original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?

A.As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.

If the original ball was found in the water hazard and this discovery affects the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b, resulting in the substituted ball having been dropped in a wrong place, the player must correct the error under Rule 20-6. The player must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decisions 20-6/2 and 26-1/16). Otherwise, Rule 20-6 does not apply and the player must continue play with the dropped ball. In either case, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 26-1.

In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1).

The thing with some rule wording is it was 'not known' nor were we 'virtually certain' it had entered the water hazard as it's totally blind down to the river bank and you cannot see the water, so I took a provisional.

So going by your last paragraph my PP was correct, it hadn't entered the hazard but as I had taken a provisional that then superseded everything as it was found outside of the hazard and was no longer the ball in play!

This for me goes against the grain of what a provisional is for, we couldn't be sure where the first ball had finished and was heading for a water hazard, so my choices were;

A/ walk to the river bank and look for the ball, if found play it as it lies under no penalty.

B/ walk to the river bank and not find the ball or identify it in the water hazard and drop at the point of entry under penalty.

c/ walk to the river bank and as above not find the ball but then walk back to the tee to take another drive under penalty.

So just because it's heading towards a water hazard and we can't be sure where its come to rest, I can't or shouldn't take a provisional unless I want that to become the immediate ball in play whether my first ball is found or not, is that correct?

 

[rulefan]

"Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds."

 

[DCB]

:thup: got it now

 

[Fish]

"Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds."

But if I play a provisional and then find the ball outside of the water hazard I have to pick it up and play the provisional?

 

[Kellfire]

Would the ball always be easily found if it isn't in the water? Aka do you think it "might also be lost outside the water hazard"?

If you expect to find it if it isn't in the water, then I think you'd need to play the provisional.

 

[atticusfinch]

The key is not what you or others think, but what does the evidence show? If all the evidence leads to a 98% certainty (or better) the ball is in a water hazard, then a provisional is not allowed, and if attempted becomes a substituted ball in play. If there is insufficient evidence to reach this conclusion then a provisional is allowed.

If a provisional is allowed, then the original is found within five mins, (in or out of the water hazard) the prov is abandoned and play continues with the original.

If a prov is allowed but the original is not found in 5 mins, the prov becomes the ball in play and it does not matter where the orig may subsequently be found, it is dead at 5:01 secs.

 

[Fish]

Would the ball always be easily found if it isn't in the water? Aka do you think it "might also be lost outside the water hazard"?

If you expect to find it if it isn't in the water, then I think you'd need to play the provisional.

No, it's pretty deep down towards the bank, the closer to the water the deeper the rough, hence why nobody, or not many would drop down there, by the time you've walked back online for a decent position, you may as just take another drive, hence the reason everyone in the main would reload.

 

[Fish]

No, it's pretty deep down towards the bank, the closer to the water the deeper the rough, hence why nobody, or not many would drop down there, by the time you've walked back online for a decent position, you may as just take another drive, hence the reason everyone in the main would reload.

View attachment 23938

and when in season and its allowed to grow up, it's like this

 

[Fish]

The key is not what you or others think, but what does the evidence show? If all the evidence leads to a 98% certainty (or better) the ball is in a water hazard, then a provisional is not allowed, and if attempted becomes a substituted ball in play. If there is insufficient evidence to reach this conclusion then a provisional is allowed.

If a provisional is allowed, then the original is found within five mins, (in or out of the water hazard) the prov is abandoned and play continues with the original.

If a prov is allowed but the original is not found in 5 mins, the prov becomes the ball in play and it does not matter where the orig may subsequently be found, it is dead at 5:01 secs.

There's no 'evidence' as your ball goes out of sight down towards the river so there is no certainty as to whether it's gone in or not at times, especially when it's hooky as it follows the line of the river and could stay out, as mine did yesterday.

I personally think your first paragraph is now more confusing, as your saying that if we all agree that there is no certainty of my ball entering the hazard then I can take a provisional, which is exactly what I did, but when I found it I was told I couldn't play it!!

 

[Kellfire]

From those photos, I would imagine you'd expect to find the ball if it wasn't in the water so I'm not sure you should be taking a provisional to cover the eventuality of a lost ball NOT in the water hazard.

I'd say you were three off the tee, even after finding the ball. Just my opinion on those pictures.

 

[duncan mackie]

The thing with some rule wording is it was 'not known' nor were we 'virtually certain' it had entered the water hazard.....

So just because it's heading towards a water hazard and we can't be sure where its come to rest, I can't or shouldn't take a provisional unless I want that to become the immediate ball in play whether my first ball is found or not, is that correct?

You seem to be looking at this completely the wrong way round!

In both of the situations you set out above your ball is not in the water hazard unless you subsequently find it there - it is simply lost.

You are entitled to play a provisional ball for a potentially lost ball. If the ball is lost you continue with it, if you find it you continue with the original ball (subject to the usual caveats).

What you seem to to be tryjng to do is play another ball provisionally on the ball being in the water hazard. Far from the rule being daft, a little thought will illustrate why this can't be right.
1. If the ball is known to be in the hazard then the concept of a provisional is pointless - that you elect to proceed with 3 off the tee is your choice.
2. If the ball isn't known to be in the hazard then you can play a provisional on it being lost or OOB. Now you do have to walk back to the tee if you subsequently establish it's in the water hazard, but that's only one of your choices and the further the distance the less likely that it will be the chosen one.

 

[Fish]

From those photos, I would imagine you'd expect to find the ball if it wasn't in the water so I'm not sure you should be taking a provisional to cover the eventuality of a lost ball NOT in the water hazard.

I'd say you were three off the tee, even after finding the ball. Just my opinion on those pictures.

You can't see the lower bank over the ridge in those photo's which is about 20 yards wide from the ridge down to the water and is deep clumpy 4"+ grass, your ball just disappears!

 

[anotherdouble]

Robin not going to add to the debate but it might be worth speaking to club about getting a local rule for this hole, for the right to platy a provisional even if in hazard to speed up play. We have one at ours for a hole that has a steep sided pond.

 

[Kellfire]

Robin not going to add to the debate but it might be worth speaking to club about getting a local rule for this hole, for the right to platy a provisional even if in hazard to speed up play. We have one at ours for a hole that has a steep sided pond.

I don't think a local rule can do that...

 

[Kellfire]

You can't see the lower bank over the ridge in those photo's which is about 20 yards wide from the ridge down to the water and is deep clumpy 4"+ grass, your ball just disappears!

Ah in that case, I'd say you're fair enough if there is a reasonable chance it could be lost in the grass.

 

[duncan mackie]

I don't think a local rule can do that...

It can (there is a carefully worded example in the Appendix) but it wouldn't be suitable here based on the images provided and words posted.

It's designed to cover situations where it can only be established that the ball has cleared a hazard after a long walk forward, and if it isn't found there isn't anywhere else it can be but in the hazard.
There are a few extra what it's associated with it's implementation as well.