THOSE PESKY JUNIORS!!

C'mon now Thommo, you've signed him up so he can carry your clubs whilst you negotiate the zimmer round the course. Is that at the Roysl or Winterfield ?

You're right though, if we as adults can't spend some time helping the junior member to integrate into the club and the world of club golf, then what hope have we for the future.

Bob makes a good point about parents driving the kids, I've seen this, it's not pretty. They will only enjoy themselves if it is something they really want to do. You can always tell the keen ones who want to be there and the ones who are made to be there just don't have the same enthusiasm.
 
C'mon now Thommo, you've signed him up so he can carry your clubs whilst you negotiate the zimmer round the course. Is that at the Roysl or Winterfield ?

You're right though, if we as adults can't spend some time helping the junior member to integrate into the club and the world of club golf, then what hope have we for the future.

Bob makes a good point about parents driving the kids, I've seen this, it's not pretty. They will only enjoy themselves if it is something they really want to do. You can always tell the keen ones who want to be there and the ones who are made to be there just don't have the same enthusiasm.
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Dave, It's the Royal, thats next Sat. Then on Sun, 36 hole final seniors at Winterfield. I'll need to be on my game for that.
 
I have played with alot of juniors at my club, in medals, and not. Now, at WH, they can't win until they are 18. Rightly, wrongly, whatever. Part of that is the fact that their h/caps never catch up with where they are, part of it is they get 7 weeks in the summer to practice, part of it is they get free lessons, what ever.
If they are off single figures, they can play in the medals, but not win.
This might seem harsh, but it is the way it is. Do the kids complain? No. They have a good set up, we are known for having a good junior set up in the area, and that is the way it is.

However, alot of you have missed the point entirely.

When I have chatted to our juniors who do play, they don't give a stuff about winning. All they want is the maximum opportunity to get a cut. Another medal is another h/cap opportunity. That is the main driving force. They want, and need a lower h/cap than their mates. They would comp every day if they could.
 
Hey! Leave us juniors alone. I love my club because we have the same rights as everyone else. Ok. So, what if you lose to a junior. You got outplayed. We don't complain when we get beaten by seniors. Think about what you're saying, it is harsh and unreasonable. :mad:
 
Hey! Leave us juniors alone. I love my club because we have the same rights as everyone else. Ok. So, what if you lose to a junior. You got outplayed. We don't complain when we get beaten by seniors. Think about what you're saying, it is harsh and unreasonable. :mad:
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Feary, I don't reckon anyone is talking about you or players like you. You have a proper handicap and take your chances in comps like anyone else.

I played with 2 juniors today (social game) and t.b.h. their handicaps were a joke. Not a small joke, a complete and utter waste of time figure. They don't play in the organised junior medals and stablefords, they just sit on massive handicaps and take the mickey up against members in matchplays and social stablefords. They wanted to "wager" £1 for every point more/less they scored than me. I turned the down the generous offer and said they could play me for a £fiver a hole with no shots given.

In retrospect, I should have taken them up on the £quid-a-hole, as they'd have owed me quite a bit after my 74 gross.

Since I made them putt out unless stone dead, I shall be copying the card and passing it on to the junior organiser/secretary.

I'm all for juniors, but in some ways, I'm glad my club separates the comps. I wouldn't be able to play in a seniors medal, the juniors can't play in our's....unless of the correct age and h'cap.

No one has an issue with the "shop boys" (assistants) or the lads "proven" in the junior comps.
 
just to put my peenies worth in
If a junior holds a mens handicap i.e. 28 or less and pays the money to enter like everyone else then what is the issue.
your example of 1 junior dropping from 28 to 18 in 1 season is not exactly a concrete argument. Anyone playing to a 28 handicap can drop a number of shots with small improvements in their game.
If a middle aged man had acheived the this in a season taking 2 medal wins along the way id like to wager that youd complain about that aswell.
Just remember that junior probably put in far more hours practice per week than most adults at the club. when i was a junior we would play 1-2 times a day in the summer aswel as 2-4 hours practice.
having played many competions as a cat1 golfer, albeit only just scraping in at 5, i know that my consistency then becomes a hinderance as most of the field have a considerable number of extra shots to play with. should i the insist that competions are played of scratch to give myself more of a chance. I think not. This is the idea of the handicap system how can you knock someone for improving!!!!! frankly, as a junior, and even more so now i find these anti junior opinions absolutely ridiculous.
In the words of a close friend 'strap on a pair'
 
just to add to rgdave's comments any playing member could easily sit on a high handicap, play the minimum 3 games a year, and take the mickey.
Iv been the victim of this in comps and it wasnt a junior taking the mick, this bloke was 50 yrs old.
You cant single out one group for this as lots of people do it
 
Hey! Leave us juniors alone. I love my club because we have the same rights as everyone else. Ok. So, what if you lose to a junior. You got outplayed. We don't complain when we get beaten by seniors. Think about what you're saying, it is harsh and unreasonable. :mad:
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He is not attacking us just complaining about how juniors an win full money even though they only pay a minimal sum to get there.

Here here to RGdave's point it focuses on the exploits of the handicap system and how it can ruin competitions.

congrats on gross 74 ;)
 
Ive been thinking about this and based on some comments like those of Imurg, who has enlightened me to a problem I forgot about.

I think to be fair to all would be to allow juniors to enter everything yet have a seperate award system , as if running comps within comps. that way I feel both adults and juniors would feel less offended.

The main problem is the speed at which juniors improve their game, it can be so rapid, as has been said, far more rapid than the speed of H/C corrections, there will always be at least one junior cleaning up through the season.

The problem I feel is not with 'Those Pesky Juniors' its with those 'Pesky Adults' who set the club rules in the first place.

Juniors are guilty of little, they turn up, practice, dont have a care in the world, are fearless,take lessons, love to compete and are desperate to lower their h/c.

If they win everything, then the h/c system needs to catch them up.
 
just to add to rgdave's comments any playing member could easily sit on a high handicap, play the minimum 3 games a year, and take the mickey.
Iv been the victim of this in comps and it wasnt a junior taking the mick, this bloke was 50 yrs old.
You cant single out one group for this as lots of people do it
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Yes, true. Impossible to argue against.

I am PRO juniors and their inclusion in whatever the club chooses. Thankfully, at mine, other than the odd bodd, all our members play regularly enough to make sure 95% of h'caps are very accurate.

It may interest all on this forum to know that with our systems in place (special comps for juniors and seniors) plus rigorous yearly reviews and a crack-hot h'cap sec who takes no bull, banditry is almost eradicated. Those who haven't returned enough cards can't enter the dozen or so "board" comps.

Our stablefords are won with an average of 41 points. There has been one 44 this calendar year. Our "older" juniors DO win nett and gross comps but their inclusion is not automatic.
 
Apologies if this has been raised and already answered elsewhere in the thread, but having been away for a while and returning to 3000+ new threads I
haven't got time to read every post!

These juniors that the OP is accusing of wrongly winning the prizes from a competition, are they being given cash (very rare from clubs I know) or are they being given vouchers for the pro shop which in turn means the money is going back into the club anyway. Admittedly they may have a shinier set of clubs than you from their winnings, but it is not as if they are raking in the tax free earnings is it?

I think any junior holding a CONGU handicap should be allowed to enter every competition, in line with the elder members of the club with the same CONGU handicap. If anything the juniors will have a more accurate handicap, and therefore get a worse deal in the 'majors' as they play in more competitions during the year (junior and senior) so will be cut / raised accordingly. They will pay the same entrance fee, yet could end up facing a 40 year old bandit who plays in two others comps in the year and then the gold letter event!

At the end of the day the handicap system makes it a level playing filed and any junior starting to play well during the summer will get cut accordingly due to the amount of competitions open to them at that time of year. They may get one good win against the adults out of it along the way, but hey is there really any harm in that? Drop the jealousy!
 
I think the only conclusion that can be drawn from this thread is that any handicap system will never be able to level a playing completely.
It may do a reasonably good job of it but it can never allow for peoples inconsistencies and ability to improve.
Recently my father had a hernia op and has struggled since, at his age he will prob never get back to where he was. this has now taken away his chance of winning anything for at least a year until his handicap starts to reflect the golf he is playing. This example just illustrates how the handicap system always works in retrospect, unless that is someone has a crytal ball that they are not telling us about?!?
If someone is playing on a regular basis in qualifying competitions then that is all they can do to ensure their handicap is as correct as it can be. endex
 
How about adopting the same rules as on the Tour?

Let Juniors enter any tournament they like and don't charge them for it. If they win, they get a trophy but no money. The money (+trophy if needed) goes to the leading adult

e.g. Shane Lowry (A) wins Irish Open, Robert Rock gets the 'winning' prize money as Lowry is not qualified to earn the money.

Juniors (like all of us really) should be competing for the title, not the £20 to spend in the pro shop and they should be happy enough with the recognition - I know I would be.


Just a suggestion that to me seems to solve all the 'problems'. Personally, I enter comps to try and win them, not the money. I'd enter no more or less if they were free entry and had no money on offer. I'd like to think that the same would apply to Juniors if they have the right sporting attitude.
 
When I was a junior we were only allowed to play adults comp's when we reached certain handicap limits.

Wednesday medals - 19 h/c
monthly medals etc - 10 h/c

This meant that on the busier days there wern't too many juniors taking up places for full sub paying adults, and that there weren't too many bandits.

It is more common for juniors to have handicaps which are too high because generally they are improving faster. I remember being cut on general play because I kept getting ridiculously good nett scores. I'm sure that if they were in adults comp's it would have annoyed the old boys.

At my current club juniors can enter adults comp's but not mark an adults card and they can't win prizes.
 
Imurg,
Think you've hit the nail on the head and raised the point I think Sandy was perhaps trying to make in the OP (other than perhaps the bit about juniors having to be off 11). Some who have lambasted him here have, I feel, missed the point of what he was trying to say.
I worked as secretary of a small nine-hole golf club for several years and , believe me, this was a very real problem.
If there were no handicaps in golf, then there wouldn't be an issue. But there are, and they are supposed to reflect closer to the best of our ability than an average. The 'problem' (please note speech marks!) with juniors (especially juniors, but of course adults too sometimes) is that they are often improving at a faster rate than the handicap system can cope with.
At our club, there were always a couple of juniors who perhaps hadn't played for a while or been away on summer hols and then come back 10 shots better than they were, shooting net scores beyond the wildest dreams of 'stable' adults playing off 10,11,12 or whatever.
Result - lots of very digruntled members, not for playing with juniors because they all actively encouraged them and enjoyed playing with them, but because they won absolutely everything.
The way we resolved it to everybody's satisfaction was to have prizes in three categories every comp - a scratch prize open to everyone because the best golfer is the best golfer regardless of age, then separate handicap categories for juniors and adults. We'd typically have 10 or so juniors playing, so they were still playing for a decent pot, and weren't being shortchanged.
The juniors were happy; the adults were happy; and everyone co-existed quite peacefully.
I think we've got to be realistic here and accept we play a game that makes a valiant effort via the handicap system to ensure everyone is off a level playing field, but it doesn't always work entirely satisfactorily.
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I am pleased that somebody has understood my point rather than just slating me for being anti-junior. That could not be further from the truth.

But get this. Since my orignal posting on Friday, the junior in question won the final summer series medal with a net 6 under. And toboot, another £120. His handicap had been dropped by two full shots since winning the previous round with another 66. No doubt he will now be cut another 1.5 shots bringing him down to 14/15.

Like somebody mentioned earlier in the string; some of these youngsters will be dropping from 28 to single figures over the school holidays. Here is one who has nearly achieved exactly that.

NOTE TO ADMINISTRATOR I apologise if I have kept you busy on this string. It was not my intention to cause controversy or angst. It seems some people quite enjoy making their point aggressively and making things personal.
 
Are folks missing a major point here or is it just me?
Winning a prize is all fine and well but isnt golf about YOU vs the course? its your handicap, worry about it and getting it down. It then doesnt matter if you won or came last as every dog has its day, when there are 300+ dogs playing on any given comp day the chances of you winning more than your fair share is slimmer than slim.

It is also worthwhile remembering that kids arnt the most consistent either so dont write a kid off for shooting net 80's and 65's, it can happen to anyone.
 
I think the only conclusion that can be drawn from this thread is that any handicap system will never be able to level a playing completely.
It may do a reasonably good job of it but it can never allow for peoples inconsistencies and ability to improve.
Recently my father had a hernia op and has struggled since, at his age he will prob never get back to where he was. this has now taken away his chance of winning anything for at least a year until his handicap starts to reflect the golf he is playing. This example just illustrates how the handicap system always works in retrospect, unless that is someone has a crytal ball that they are not telling us about?!?
If someone is playing on a regular basis in qualifying competitions then that is all they can do to ensure their handicap is as correct as it can be. endex
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I read recently that if (for example) you had a handicap of 17 but should be off 14 it would take around 20 qualifying rounds to get there. If off 14 when you should be off 17, it would take around 60.
 
These juniors that the OP is accusing of wrongly winning the prizes from a competition, are they being given cash (very rare from clubs I know) or are they being given vouchers for the pro shop which in turn means the money is going back into the club anyway. Admittedly they may have a shinier set of clubs than you from their winnings, but it is not as if they are raking in the tax free earnings is it?
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I will answer that question Eagle. The winnings are usually split 50/50. Half the money goes to pro-shop account and other half is cash.
 
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