JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
So is the crux of the issue the fact that juniors play better than their handicaps and therefore win? ...are you saying that all juniors are bandits?
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THOSE PESKY JUNIORS!!
- Thread starter SandyBalls
- Start date
clubchamp07
Journeyman Pro
Badits, any bandits that I have ever came accross where all above the age of 30. Keeping their handicaps for the BIG days in the year. Any junior I know and as I used to be one myself. All juniors think about is getting their handicaps cut. If that means lifting a few shillings along the way so be it.
Hey teacher leave those kids alone, springs to mind.
Hey teacher leave those kids alone, springs to mind.
tonto768
Assistant Pro
We had the same problem although we did not allow Juniors to win money.They only paid 50p entry money and didn't get to enter sweeps or 2s.
Some Gents objected to playing with 11 and 12 year olds as they felt they were being used as babysitters. Indeed one Gent said he came to play ro get away from his wife and kids for a while and he was dammed if he was gonna be stuck with someone elses kids.
This season we introduced a 15 age limit and no handicap restriction for weekend competitions which are all drawn. Any Jounior can play in the wednesday comps.
Some Gents objected to playing with 11 and 12 year olds as they felt they were being used as babysitters. Indeed one Gent said he came to play ro get away from his wife and kids for a while and he was dammed if he was gonna be stuck with someone elses kids.
This season we introduced a 15 age limit and no handicap restriction for weekend competitions which are all drawn. Any Jounior can play in the wednesday comps.
Tommo21
Tour Winner
I've been landed with some people who need babysitting and they're not juniors...........no joke.
DCB
Well-known member
J_F didn't throw a single club that night we played last month 
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
I think the issue here is with those juniors whose handicaps are coming down fast. If a junior has a reletively stable handicap - maybe dropping a shot or 3 per season - then I don't think anyone can have a problem with that. But some of these kids are dropping from 28 to single figures in the space of the summer holidays. To do this they are going to win everything in sight. So I'd be in favour of a limit to, say, 15 to be able to win. Allow them to play whatever they play off but to win - keep it to the more stable handicaps.
As a sort of side - I feel that Men's comps should be for Men, Ladies for Ladies and Juniors for Juniors. All this messing around with Annika and Wie playing the mens tour - why? They've got perfectly good comps of their own. Men can't enter ladies comps so ladies shouldn't enter mens. Same goes for Juniors. if there are enough Junior comps they should be happy with that until they reach a specific standard and then they can join the Men.
As a sort of side - I feel that Men's comps should be for Men, Ladies for Ladies and Juniors for Juniors. All this messing around with Annika and Wie playing the mens tour - why? They've got perfectly good comps of their own. Men can't enter ladies comps so ladies shouldn't enter mens. Same goes for Juniors. if there are enough Junior comps they should be happy with that until they reach a specific standard and then they can join the Men.
If they are good enough to play they should be in.We need all the youngsters possible as the age of club membership is old old old.
Besides if we didn't let them play we wouldn't have won our Scratch league and be on course for a historic league and cup double! Yes they piss me off cos they can all chip and putt for their lives but by christ they are a joy to watch....I was like that once!!
Besides if we didn't let them play we wouldn't have won our Scratch league and be on course for a historic league and cup double! Yes they piss me off cos they can all chip and putt for their lives but by christ they are a joy to watch....I was like that once!!
Robobum
Money List Winner
Those who think that juniors need to reach a "certain standard" before they can enter mens competitions - is that standard required to be better or worse than Harry Hacker who hasn't broken 100 in his entire life but has the cash to pay full subs and the good fortune to be born over 18 years ago so he isn't barred from "mens" comps??
If it was a toss up between me winning £50 in pro shop vouchers for winning a monthly medal or letting a kid win it so that he is chuffed to bits and can get a bit of shiny new kit and feel encouraged to continue playing and improving - not even worth answering it, and shame on you that begrudge a kid kicking your arse. Your ineptitude at golf isn't his fault.
If it was a toss up between me winning £50 in pro shop vouchers for winning a monthly medal or letting a kid win it so that he is chuffed to bits and can get a bit of shiny new kit and feel encouraged to continue playing and improving - not even worth answering it, and shame on you that begrudge a kid kicking your arse. Your ineptitude at golf isn't his fault.
Spot on Robobum.....post of the week.
viscount17
Money List Winner
there are two issues here,
firstly, to me it is grossly unfair to set a handicap restriction for one group of competitors that is not applied to others. what next, juniors only use half a set, tie one hand behind their backs?
set an age limit if you have to or restrict them to junior events; just make sure there are enough competitions for them.
secondly, if you permit someone to enter a competition where they pay the same entry fee as any other, then it is to my mind little short of theft to then say they cannot win the prize. you are in fact, using them to bolster your own prizes.
firstly, to me it is grossly unfair to set a handicap restriction for one group of competitors that is not applied to others. what next, juniors only use half a set, tie one hand behind their backs?
set an age limit if you have to or restrict them to junior events; just make sure there are enough competitions for them.
secondly, if you permit someone to enter a competition where they pay the same entry fee as any other, then it is to my mind little short of theft to then say they cannot win the prize. you are in fact, using them to bolster your own prizes.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Robobum - I'll concede your point but...
If Juniors keep winning the Men's comps is there not a point at which the Men will re-consider the worth of playing in those comps as the kids are going to kick their butts and take the money? If enough of them don't enter or worse still move clubs as a result who wins then? The comps don't go ahead as there arn't enough men to play them and the club loses members who go to a club that doesn't let the kids in.
A bit "worst case" I know but I've seen it happen at my old club. The kids were allowed in (I was on the Commitee that allowed it by the way!) and they proceded to clean up every week. Approx 65% of the men then boycotted comps - rightly or wrongly but that was their choice - until the kids were only allowed if they'd reached a 15 handicap and the only once a month.
Juniors are the future of any club but don't forget the current members are the present. And without a present there may not be a future.
If Juniors keep winning the Men's comps is there not a point at which the Men will re-consider the worth of playing in those comps as the kids are going to kick their butts and take the money? If enough of them don't enter or worse still move clubs as a result who wins then? The comps don't go ahead as there arn't enough men to play them and the club loses members who go to a club that doesn't let the kids in.
A bit "worst case" I know but I've seen it happen at my old club. The kids were allowed in (I was on the Commitee that allowed it by the way!) and they proceded to clean up every week. Approx 65% of the men then boycotted comps - rightly or wrongly but that was their choice - until the kids were only allowed if they'd reached a 15 handicap and the only once a month.
Juniors are the future of any club but don't forget the current members are the present. And without a present there may not be a future.
RGDave
Money List Winner
Whoa...what a heated thread!
Juniors are not entitled to play in Men's comps at mine until they are 16 and off 24 or less.
Suits me. The thought of 12 years olds off 26 winning everything in sight is not ideal.
Before I get shot down, my club has a special accreditation for supporting juniors and getting kids onto golf. We have lots of comps just for juniors.
If a 17 yr old off 6 goes out and shoots par (42 points) he deserves to win the prize (be it a box of balls or £40 voucher)....good for him.
Juniors are not entitled to play in Men's comps at mine until they are 16 and off 24 or less.
Suits me. The thought of 12 years olds off 26 winning everything in sight is not ideal.
Before I get shot down, my club has a special accreditation for supporting juniors and getting kids onto golf. We have lots of comps just for juniors.
If a 17 yr old off 6 goes out and shoots par (42 points) he deserves to win the prize (be it a box of balls or £40 voucher)....good for him.
Robobum
Money List Winner
Imurg - Aren't those exactly the type of attitudes that we all want to change??
What does a comp entry cost?? £3 without the twos money?? £5 tops if you're a posh mockney club!! If grown men want to take their bat & ball home because they aren't good enough to beat a kid and are losing £3 then that's a real shame.
I don't see how a club will faulter if that worse case scenario happens and the men boycott them. The comps will becaome unviable and will get stopped and the tee will be freed up for the grumpy old gits to play merrily amongst themselves until their hearts are content.
Good thread this btw
What does a comp entry cost?? £3 without the twos money?? £5 tops if you're a posh mockney club!! If grown men want to take their bat & ball home because they aren't good enough to beat a kid and are losing £3 then that's a real shame.
I don't see how a club will faulter if that worse case scenario happens and the men boycott them. The comps will becaome unviable and will get stopped and the tee will be freed up for the grumpy old gits to play merrily amongst themselves until their hearts are content.
Good thread this btw
stevie2722
Medal Winner
when i was a junior as long as you hed a mens handicap you could play in any comp you wanted.
Anyone playing of 28 is capable of dropping a handful of shots in a very short period of time. small improvements at that handicap can save lots of shots.
Juniors tend to come down faster not because theyre growing but because they practice, practice and then practice some more. i can playing 2 times a day and practicing after dark when i was a junior and i definately was not alone in that.
I think all this anti junior attitude is pretty petty.
if a 40 year old man dropped his 28 handicap to 18 in one season, which is very acheivable youd probably whinge about that aswell.
totally agree with Hogansalley. well said that man!
Anyone playing of 28 is capable of dropping a handful of shots in a very short period of time. small improvements at that handicap can save lots of shots.
Juniors tend to come down faster not because theyre growing but because they practice, practice and then practice some more. i can playing 2 times a day and practicing after dark when i was a junior and i definately was not alone in that.
I think all this anti junior attitude is pretty petty.
if a 40 year old man dropped his 28 handicap to 18 in one season, which is very acheivable youd probably whinge about that aswell.
totally agree with Hogansalley. well said that man!
DCB
Well-known member
I've been helping out with the junior coaching at our club this past summer. It has been an eye opener. All the boys want to do is melt it over the horizon with their driver and if necessary, use their 6-° wedge to get it to safety if they miss the fairway !
Well that's maybe a bit harsh, but they all want to hit it a long way off the tee nowadays.
Anaway, the biggest factor in any juniors development is the amount of time they get to practice and play. The handicaps of the serious golfers tumble between the end of May and Sept. More so during the 7 week school holiday period.
If the club puts enough competitions on, and they play in those comps then their handicap reflects their current playing ability. If on the other hand they don't play all the comps but play a lot of bounce games with their mates, then when they do play in comp they do have a blitzer first time out. Then there is a period of adjustment as they get their handicap sorted out properly as they start playing comps again.
Another factor is that they're always growing and developing physically. I've seen some wee boys who have grown a couple of inches over the summer. Thats got to help their game as well.
I just wish I had been able to swing the club as fluidly as they can and to hit the ball as far as they can.
If they're good enough let then play.
As an aside, what's all this about entry fees ? The only thing I pay for on a weekly basis is the sweep that the pro runs. It sounds like a lot of you still have a comp entry fee over and above your subs, is that correct ?
Well that's maybe a bit harsh, but they all want to hit it a long way off the tee nowadays.
Anaway, the biggest factor in any juniors development is the amount of time they get to practice and play. The handicaps of the serious golfers tumble between the end of May and Sept. More so during the 7 week school holiday period.
If the club puts enough competitions on, and they play in those comps then their handicap reflects their current playing ability. If on the other hand they don't play all the comps but play a lot of bounce games with their mates, then when they do play in comp they do have a blitzer first time out. Then there is a period of adjustment as they get their handicap sorted out properly as they start playing comps again.
Another factor is that they're always growing and developing physically. I've seen some wee boys who have grown a couple of inches over the summer. Thats got to help their game as well.
I just wish I had been able to swing the club as fluidly as they can and to hit the ball as far as they can.
If they're good enough let then play.
As an aside, what's all this about entry fees ? The only thing I pay for on a weekly basis is the sweep that the pro runs. It sounds like a lot of you still have a comp entry fee over and above your subs, is that correct ?
Imurg,
Think you've hit the nail on the head and raised the point I think Sandy was perhaps trying to make in the OP (other than perhaps the bit about juniors having to be off 11). Some who have lambasted him here have, I feel, missed the point of what he was trying to say.
I worked as secretary of a small nine-hole golf club for several years and , believe me, this was a very real problem.
If there were no handicaps in golf, then there wouldn't be an issue. But there are, and they are supposed to reflect closer to the best of our ability than an average. The 'problem' (please note speech marks!) with juniors (especially juniors, but of course adults too sometimes) is that they are often improving at a faster rate than the handicap system can cope with.
At our club, there were always a couple of juniors who perhaps hadn't played for a while or been away on summer hols and then come back 10 shots better than they were, shooting net scores beyond the wildest dreams of 'stable' adults playing off 10,11,12 or whatever.
Result - lots of very digruntled members, not for playing with juniors because they all actively encouraged them and enjoyed playing with them, but because they won absolutely everything.
The way we resolved it to everybody's satisfaction was to have prizes in three categories every comp - a scratch prize open to everyone because the best golfer is the best golfer regardless of age, then separate handicap categories for juniors and adults. We'd typically have 10 or so juniors playing, so they were still playing for a decent pot, and weren't being shortchanged.
The juniors were happy; the adults were happy; and everyone co-existed quite peacefully.
I think we've got to be realistic here and accept we play a game that makes a valiant effort via the handicap system to ensure everyone is off a level playing field, but it doesn't always work entirely satisfactorily.
Think you've hit the nail on the head and raised the point I think Sandy was perhaps trying to make in the OP (other than perhaps the bit about juniors having to be off 11). Some who have lambasted him here have, I feel, missed the point of what he was trying to say.
I worked as secretary of a small nine-hole golf club for several years and , believe me, this was a very real problem.
If there were no handicaps in golf, then there wouldn't be an issue. But there are, and they are supposed to reflect closer to the best of our ability than an average. The 'problem' (please note speech marks!) with juniors (especially juniors, but of course adults too sometimes) is that they are often improving at a faster rate than the handicap system can cope with.
At our club, there were always a couple of juniors who perhaps hadn't played for a while or been away on summer hols and then come back 10 shots better than they were, shooting net scores beyond the wildest dreams of 'stable' adults playing off 10,11,12 or whatever.
Result - lots of very digruntled members, not for playing with juniors because they all actively encouraged them and enjoyed playing with them, but because they won absolutely everything.
The way we resolved it to everybody's satisfaction was to have prizes in three categories every comp - a scratch prize open to everyone because the best golfer is the best golfer regardless of age, then separate handicap categories for juniors and adults. We'd typically have 10 or so juniors playing, so they were still playing for a decent pot, and weren't being shortchanged.
The juniors were happy; the adults were happy; and everyone co-existed quite peacefully.
I think we've got to be realistic here and accept we play a game that makes a valiant effort via the handicap system to ensure everyone is off a level playing field, but it doesn't always work entirely satisfactorily.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Imurg - Aren't those exactly the type of attitudes that we all want to change??
What does a comp entry cost?? £3 without the twos money?? £5 tops if you're a posh mockney club!! If grown men want to take their bat & ball home because they aren't good enough to beat a kid and are losing £3 then that's a real shame.
I don't see how a club will faulter if that worse case scenario happens and the men boycott them. The comps will becaome unviable and will get stopped and the tee will be freed up for the grumpy old gits to play merrily amongst themselves until their hearts are content.
Good thread this btw
Yes we do need to change them
It is a shame thet grown men act like that but in the real world they do. Right or wrong it happens.
As I said it's a worst case scenario but in theory if enough members get disgruntled enough and decide to move on , the revenue at the club will drop significantly and could cause problems.
Agree its a good one this - there's almost no right or wrong answer. I think compromise is the word we're looking for.
bobmac
Major Champion
1. We should encourage juniors as they are the club's future.
2. Most juniors I know can kick Harry Hackers bottom any day of the week.
3. Mix them up in the adults comps so they learn proper behaviour and etiquette.
4. Let them use the white tees so they can play the course at it's toughest.
5. Make sure they dress correctly for the prize giving and on the course.
One question though................
Has anyone asked what the kids want to do???
I see dads push their kids forward to play in all the comps, drive them everywhere, buy them all the kit, spoil them useless. I even saw a junior sized power trolley recently
It may have changed since I was a lad in the 70's playing off 2, but all I wanted was to go out and play with my mates and in junior comps.
We are after all talking mostly about children here. Do they really want to play with us old fuddy duddys or is it just the dads trying to look as if they are supporting the juniors by forcing them to play in the big comps.
I say support them definately, but support them in what they want to do, whether that is in adult comps or their own junior stuff
Let them have fun their way.
2. Most juniors I know can kick Harry Hackers bottom any day of the week.
3. Mix them up in the adults comps so they learn proper behaviour and etiquette.
4. Let them use the white tees so they can play the course at it's toughest.
5. Make sure they dress correctly for the prize giving and on the course.
One question though................
Has anyone asked what the kids want to do???
I see dads push their kids forward to play in all the comps, drive them everywhere, buy them all the kit, spoil them useless. I even saw a junior sized power trolley recently
It may have changed since I was a lad in the 70's playing off 2, but all I wanted was to go out and play with my mates and in junior comps.
We are after all talking mostly about children here. Do they really want to play with us old fuddy duddys or is it just the dads trying to look as if they are supporting the juniors by forcing them to play in the big comps.
I say support them definately, but support them in what they want to do, whether that is in adult comps or their own junior stuff
Let them have fun their way.
Robobum
Money List Winner
It seems to work well at my own club and I'm sure it is all dependant on the make up of the membership and that is purely down to chance in varying locations.
The juniors, can play in the mens medals once they have been given the okay by the pro. He will have seen them either in lessons or they have to do a little playing test which, to an extent, is regardless of handicap.
There must then be at least one adult in their group. They normally end up playing in a 3 ball with an adult family member or firend. If this isn't the case they can put their names up against a time slot and an adult can choose to make up that 3ball if they so wish and put their name up against it too.
If the juniors do become stranded without an adult in the group then the comps guys will contact the adults in any groups with spaces and ask if the juniors can join them, if they refuse then, unfortunately, the juniors can't play........I've never heard of this happening btw.
The juniors, can play in the mens medals once they have been given the okay by the pro. He will have seen them either in lessons or they have to do a little playing test which, to an extent, is regardless of handicap.
There must then be at least one adult in their group. They normally end up playing in a 3 ball with an adult family member or firend. If this isn't the case they can put their names up against a time slot and an adult can choose to make up that 3ball if they so wish and put their name up against it too.
If the juniors do become stranded without an adult in the group then the comps guys will contact the adults in any groups with spaces and ask if the juniors can join them, if they refuse then, unfortunately, the juniors can't play........I've never heard of this happening btw.
Tommo21
Tour Winner
Funny this, I was at the course last night, really busy, so I went up to the practice area. After a while one of the juniors of 14, plays of 6, I know him and his dad well, came in and we were hitting balls until dark. We were having a good chat about everything golf and I asked him who he was playing with in next weeks pairs comp. Anyway, we’re now a team. Maybe, just maybe, if the men, and golf clubs, were to encourage these youngsters more, perhaps with more mixed men and junior comps, the divide that is sometimes there could be bridged.
I think it’s great golfing with the juniors, my nephew’s not long started and he’s looking good already. Even my son in-law, not exactly a junior, has just started. I also think they get the raw end of the deal with not getting tee times as easily as us auld yins.
I think it’s great golfing with the juniors, my nephew’s not long started and he’s looking good already. Even my son in-law, not exactly a junior, has just started. I also think they get the raw end of the deal with not getting tee times as easily as us auld yins.
