The world of golf is being held back

DarthVega said:
That shocks me, why doesnt this happen anymore? it was part of growing as a young man to conduct yourself in a civilised manner and be sporting to your competitors whether you won or lost, friendships were made. Is this across all clubs for a reason or just a few that want to play and leave with no sense of occasion?
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Like I said, standards have slipped. Probably started with letting them off wearing collar and tie, speeches were then forgotten and now they just sit in separate teams and have dinner. Does that make me a stuffed shirt to harp back to the old days? Is my attitude holding back the game? Some might say yes.

Going back to the original post, I think this is the kind of thing that justagolfer was trying to allude to, but his point has been lost in all the nonsense of yesterday.
 
SonicBoom said:
I am a French, Buddhist monk and I love nothing more than treading the fairways in my sandals and kaftan. I have always been well received by the members.
And my boyfriend loves it too.
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I'm sorry, but that is the funniest thing I have read in ages!!!
 
The world of golf is actually moving forward, it is just some golfers that are not. Every club has golfers who harp back to the 'good old days' with their rose tinted glasses. They contribute nothing to the club, apart from their subs, but think the club should be run just for their enjoyment. They play in their little cliques, as they don't bother to try and socialise with other members. Fortunately over the years there numbers are dwindling, and no one is going to lift a finger to save them. They never have a good word to say about their club, and have no interest in its longer term well being. As someone else said it is Me Me Me Me........

Ring any bells Gilbert ?
 
lobthewedge said:
Like I said, standards have slipped. Probably started with letting them off wearing collar and tie, speeches were then forgotten and now they just sit in separate teams and have dinner. Does that make me a stuffed shirt to harp back to the old days? Is my attitude holding back the game? Some might say yes.

Going back to the original post, I think this is the kind of thing that justagolfer was trying to allude to, but his point has been lost in all the nonsense of yesterday.
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Very well said. I completely agree with all you have said on this thread.

I would class myself as a traditionalist too and like to feel like going to a golf club is a special occasion. It always used to be when I was a youngster and this partly attributable to the fact that there was a different set of rules to be abided by when entering the hallowed ground! It wasn't like being at school or the local sports centre. It was a place where civility, good manners and etiquette were paramount and best behaviour was required.

There are still plenty of golf clubs like this in the UK and they are not all hugely expensive. However, somewhat sadly in my view, many clubs have changed away from this and I see this most starkly at the clubs I played at when I was a young lad in the Sheffield area. The sense of occasion that these clubs used to create has diminished to the point where it barely exists now. As an example, I was at a club that I was a junior member at over 25 years ago recently for an am-am. The team that won had a couple of juniors in it from the host club. When they collected their first prize, they were wearing Superdry T Shirts, Jeans and trainers. Their excuse was that they were going out afterwards and they thought this was fine and even amusing.

I thought it was totally out of order personally but I was in the minority. For what it is worth, I think they should have been in jacket and tie and then changed to go out afterwards. This particular club used to be classed as one of the best in the Sheffield Union but it has gone so far downhill in terms of acceptable standards that it is almost unrecognisable from my days there as a junior.

I personally think it is a crying shame but I know that some of the forumites will have a diametrically opposite view.


I have always felt that going to play golf should give you a sense of special occasion. Your golf club should be a place with it's own rules and quirks that make you feel like you are part of a priveliged club, a sanctuary away from the maelstrom that is modern life. My next club will be chosen with this as the primary consideration for selection too as I want my children to experience the same things I did and get a real sensation of going somewhere special every time they get to go to the golf club.

Cheers,


Snelly.
 
Snelly said:
Very well said. I completely agree with all you have said on this thread.

I would class myself as a traditionalist too and like to feel like going to a golf club is a special occasion. It always used to be when I was a youngster and this partly attributable to the fact that there was a different set of rules to be abided by when entering the hallowed ground! It wasn't like being at school or the local sports centre. It was a place where civility, good manners and etiquette were paramount and best behaviour was required.

There are still plenty of golf clubs like this in the UK and they are not all hugely expensive. However, somewhat sadly in my view, many clubs have changed away from this and I see this most starkly at the clubs I played at when I was a young lad in the Sheffield area. The sense of occasion that these clubs used to create has diminished to the point where it barely exists now. As an example, I was at a club that I was a junior member at over 25 years ago recently for an am-am. The team that won had a couple of juniors in it from the host club. When they collected their first prize, they were wearing Superdry T Shirts, Jeans and trainers. Their excuse was that they were going out afterwards and they thought this was fine and even amusing.

I thought it was totally out of order personally but I was in the minority. For what it is worth, I think they should have been in jacket and tie and then changed to go out afterwards. This particular club used to be classed as one of the best in the Sheffield Union but it has gone so far downhill in terms of acceptable standards that it is almost unrecognisable from my days there as a junior.

I personally think it is a crying shame but I know that some of the forumites will have a diametrically opposite view.


I have always felt that going to play golf should give you a sense of special occasion. Your golf club should be a place with it's own rules and quirks that make you feel like you are part of a priveliged club, a sanctuary away from the maelstrom that is modern life. My next club will be chosen with this as the primary consideration for selection too as I want my children to experience the same things I did and get a real sensation of going somewhere special every time they get to go to the golf club.

Cheers,


Snelly.
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I agree with you to a point. Good manners etc should be part of golf. But it should not be special you should be like that in your everyday life to. So no differance there. Yes it is wrong for the juniors to act like that. But golf is not special. Its just a ball game like many more. If you wish to make it special to yourself thats fine. But to alot of people its a relaxation a hobby nothing more. There is no excuse for poor manners in any walk of life. After all its one of the few things that still dont cost you anything. I enjoy going to the club and have no problems with the rules etc. Plus I hope I am well mannered in all things I do in life. But special no. A social event yes. enjoyment yes. But its still only just a ball game no matter how much I enjoy it.
 
DaveM, a good point, well made and I have to agree.

I find it irritating that at the majority of clubs the under 30s (for example) pay a reduced membership; I understand the reasons for it i.e. positive action in order to encourage people to play the game.

No new members = constantly ageing membership = reduced revenue through the main source of income being Senior member subs = hard times financially for the club.

You have to ask why positive action is necessary to encourage the 18 - 30 guys - could it be the perceptions of stuffiness? I wonder how many potential members have thought 'I'd love to join and play but I'm not paying money for my leisure activity to then have to wear a collar and tie to enjoy a pint afterwards.
 
stevie_r said:
You have to ask why positive action is necessary to encourage the 18 - 30 guys - could it be the perceptions of stuffiness? I wonder how many potential members have thought 'I'd love to join and play but I'm not paying money for my leisure activity to then have to wear a collar and tie to enjoy a pint afterwards.
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I dont think this is the case at all. In my experience its more to do with catering for the financial needs of young people starting off in life ie students, school leavers, twentysomethings in a new job, newlyweds setting up home etc. As a 31 year old I bloody wish they had had it at my club, ive paid full whack since I was 18.
 
DaveM said:
I agree with you to a point. Good manners etc should be part of golf. But it should not be special you should be like that in your everyday life to. So no differance there. Yes it is wrong for the juniors to act like that. But golf is not special. Its just a ball game like many more. If you wish to make it special to yourself thats fine. But to alot of people its a relaxation a hobby nothing more. There is no excuse for poor manners in any walk of life. After all its one of the few things that still dont cost you anything. I enjoy going to the club and have no problems with the rules etc. Plus I hope I am well mannered in all things I do in life. But special no. A social event yes. enjoyment yes. But its still only just a ball game no matter how much I enjoy it.
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Go and play at Sunningdale, Swinley, West Sussex, St Georges Hill or The Berkshire and it will feel like a special occasion believe me. I have played many times at these courses, in fact I am playing St Georges Hill tomorrow by coincidence, and I know that when I get there, it will absolutely 100% feel like a special occasion, despite the fact that I have played there about 15 times. The feeling doesn't diminish. Same for me at my local club West Sussex. Really special place to be and you feel like that every time you walk through the door.

Not many golf clubs are like this any more. The point I am making is that a lot more used to be like that but they don't now as their standards have slipped.

It seems though you and I want different things from golf club membership so there isn't much point debating it as never the twain shall meet.
 
Snelly/DaveM, I reckon you're both right.

It's great to turn up at a prestigious course and soak in the feel and the atmosphere of the place, but equally, I'm not sure that I'd want to play at such a place every day of the week. Your home course should be like a comfortable pair of slippers, whereas it's also good to get out there and play some special courses too.
 
I have played Swinley many times. Special course yes, special club, not for me. Place is like a morgue with no atmosphere at times. I like a club where you can go up and have a bite to eat, a drink, and not necessarily have to play golf, and still feel welcome. A place 'where everyone knows your name'.
 
Can I just point out that there are several different types of golf clubs. Not all are "special". I have several clubs in my general area. 1 is a municipal, 1 is a pay and play privately owned club, and my club is a more traditional members only club. Visiting the first 2 is NOT special. The courses are average at best, the clubhouse is soulless and generally empty. I still dress for the occasion, but it is not special. My club has a fairly long history (centenary next year) and is still a "traditional" club. No jeans, no trainers, no hats indoors etc etc. However, it still doesn't feel particularly special. But, every time I visit any of the nearby Links courses, Lytham, Birkdale etc, now that is special and requires dressing for the occasion.
 
This post and its answers just show how difficult it is for golf clubs to get it right.
Some people feel that its difficult to attract new members,because golf is seen as snobbery.
Others like traditions and hate the new breed of golfer that wears jeans and t-shirts.
A lot of golf clubs are feeling the pinch and basically have let standards slip,because theve had to,to attract new members.
Im all for traditions and standards,and have respect for the clubs that practice this.
But things are changing.
I ve known people refuse to play a course because you cant wear golf gear in the clubhouse
after a round,whats that all about,it takes minutes to change.
The op has talked about respect,and i believe respect costs nothing.
 
Nope, i don't get the standards are slipping debate, just dont see it.

Have a look at the next golf tournament on the telly and the current breed of golfers/sportsmen are wearing athletic looking sports clothing and looking very smart indeed, but given some of the comments would be outcast from the club house, crazy.

Change is inevitable - except from a vending machine.
 
First let me say…. This is a Forum open to all as I understand it. A place where you can have your say, whether someone agrees with it or not, and anyway everyone gets the right to reply with their own opinion…Ok


Also…Being a traditionalist as I had tried to point out has nothing to do with collars and ties.

It is as others have concurred. About behaviour and not just at the Golf Club…So that part is clear now I hope.


Now…No one has answered the question I posed…. The question was…. What has held golf “back“, and “back” from what.. All I read in the responses are people harping on about my etiquette posting..
And men in stuffed shirts and club rules…

So I ask again.

What has held golf “back“ and more importantly “back from what“.. ?

Developing? Developing into what?

Here are my views. Purely observational and not intended to offend anyone.

Golf has moved on…… The technical development is self evident and well beyond my technical ability to expand upon…So it is easier to play the game.

Socially……Yes, forward and back..

FORWARD…. Anyone can play golf and in the main at any course “traditional” or artisan. Oh yes I hear you say only if you stick to their stuffy rules…That’s a cop out.. If you meet the behaviour/dress code standards your in and I can see no good reason why if you wish to play a particular course you cannot do the club the courtesy of meeting their standards..

The collar and tie golf Club has gone with maybe a few exceptions.. Non of which I am aware of…and any way if you don’t like that type of club you just don’t go there….It’s simple..

FORWARD….Golf club membership in relative terms has got cheaper. Present financial climate accepted.

It’s like the people who have written to me saying things like get over it, give it up…Why.?
I’m as entitled to my view as they are and if they find it all so objectionable why do they bother to open the posting in the first place or bother to reply?

It’s the same with Clubs. If you don’t like a particular club or it’s members attitudes go else where.
There are hundred of clubs out there now begging for members…Funny though how all the traditional clubs don’t appear to be chasing members..

BACKWARDS…It takes on or around 5 hours to play a round of golf and the young single males are the most guilty…

Most young married’s will not have the time or inclination to spend a whole day away from their young family…

Golf kit is at ridiculous prices and if you don’t have the latest gear your out of fashion and you have to change it every year so the marketing people would have us believe.. something important to the young.

Course Etiquette has gone in many places. Few people let you through, rake bunkers, repair divots etc,etc.

There are many, many more leisure options out there that take less time and money to enjoy.

And on and on and on…No the decline in the game is not because old stuffy Gilbert bangs on about behaviour. That as I say is the cop out of the true moaners of this world

If your club does not provide what you want from it get off you anatomical aperture and get on the committee and change it..

Now to your replies…

SWINGER…Your post just seems to be some totally incoherent rant…I can’t respond.. Are you talking about me or the people you think are like me.. For let me tell you even at my club there are many who share my views..

THEROD…I think what I have written covers you response.. Just on the shoes thing…it’s not a question of looking down on someone. It a metaphor, the shoes are a reflection on the individuals don’t care attitude which may be reflected in his overall behaviour. Not looking after the course, boorish conduct, etc.

STRANGLY…as with THEROD covered you position I think. Would you like to elaborate on progressive?

DAVIDM… There you go David. Doing what a lot of people do when they can’t make a reasoned argument.. You make up your our dialog…Where do I call anyone a FAT SLOB?? and the worse you refer to. If you look back you will see any rudeness on my part is only after someone had a go at me..

FALDO’s J.. Please, if you can’t make a meaningful contribution.. Stay away

TINCUP. Read reply to David M

STEVER..I think again I have covered you points. As I say if you are getting bored then you can give it up,,, it’s not compulsory…In the context of what they did on 18. I stand by the go somewhere else statement.

DCB…. No offence but off message. Not answering the main question..

DAVIDM… Lets make our mind up here.. We old farts “That’s me” are keeping the game back..
And you say….Do you really want to go back?? Now tell me. Are we back, are we forward, can we make our mind up.

LOBTHEWEDGE.. Who’s moaning. I asked the question about standards using the Forum guys conduct as an example.. Not a moan. It was a legitimate interest question.. Some may have not liked the way it was put, sure I was also having a go…Rudeness begets rudeness in my book and that’s what they were. And the deed was done so no point trying to make something of it at the time although did report it to our Pro. Who did nothing. And anyway your another one off message.. Read the question on this post.

DAVE.M again…Let me see now. Manners selective reading again…

BLUETOON..I think we have covered you little moan.

JOHN.O Scotland of course.. would be delighted to get an invite..

DCB.. absolutely correct but north and south…good clubs, bad clubs, snooty clubs, artisan clubs.. Most good places to play golf if you have REASONABLE standards of conduct and respect for others.

SONICBOOM…Thank you for your erudite and meaningful contribution…

RICHART.. Everything you say makes sense. Still not answering the question though, but your not alone in that. You see someone has made this statement but it turns out it’s a load of B.A.L.L.S. They can’t back it up. They equate someone trying to defend the good things in the game as being a stuffy old ( feel free to enter own word) but in reality it is they who would destroy the game…As for the me,me,me bit you will have to elucidate on that bit.

STEVE.R again…. Try and put some thought into the question and stop trying to blame the old farts all the time…Goswick is an artisan club with a great course no surrounding competition and as I understand it. Less than 200 adult male members. You truly think old farty face here is to blame?

DEL.B you may not have answered the question but you have hit the nail on the head. Room for everything and the choice is out there…Thank you for your sanity…
PS: doing anything tonight…LOL


Well that’s about it.. Hope they can leave this on I for one have enjoyed putting my case, and reading everyone’s point of view on topic or not..

Love and kisses

Old Gilby Fart
 
Being held back from becoming a modern inclusive sport/pastime.

Some of the attitudes displayed at some clubs near me and echoed by some members on here enourage protectionism and exclusivity rather than embrace positive change. Richart summed it up much better than me in describing the gin soaked duffer in the corner, who has played off 22 for 30 years in the same 4 ball. He would rather rail against anything he doesn't understand than embrace the future on his terms.

Nothing wrong with standards etc but unless clubs are welcoming they will wither and die. This probably doesn't apply to Sunningdale etc where playing there is a special occasion, but I don't really want to polish my brogues for a Sunday morning stableford
 
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justagolfer said:
STEVER..I think again I have covered you points. As I say if you are getting bored then you can give it up,,, it’s not compulsory…In the context of what they did on 18. I stand by the go somewhere else statement.


STEVE.R again…. Try and put some thought into the question and stop trying to blame the old farts all the time…Goswick is an artisan club with a great course no surrounding competition and as I understand it. Less than 200 adult male members. You truly think old farty face here is to blame?
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Right, I did put thought into the question and asked because I was curious as to why that particular age group is so under represented that clubs feel the need to take positive action (and using that as a reason to avoid age legislation). Could you kindly point out where I apportioned any blame on you personally?

The chip on your shoulder at the moment is so huge it must really be affecting your swing
 
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