The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Slime]

Do you mean that wild driving is costing you or that if you hit exactly the same shot pattern but 15 yards longer that would greatly improve your scores?

At my level an errant drive is often a reload and three off the tee.
A wayward putt, 99% of the time, just costs one extra shot.

 

[Backache]

Unless I am misunderstanding you (entirely possible as I am dipping in and out of here) isn't that exactly what Brodie and Fawcett do? The strokes lost for given misses (therefore accuracy) are also addressed.

The scratch golfer would have the potential to be lower if he was longer, accepting that there are physical constraints in this particular golfer owing to age.

Of course the scratch player or any player has the ability to be lower if they are longer but they also have the ability to be lower if they are more accurate.
Distance is measured in length and accuracy usually in degrees off line . I have seen correlations of length and score but not measures of accuracy and score though it must exist . No one thinks that if you only hit 50% of your balls within 45 degrees of a target line you can score . You will lose an awful lot of balls off the tee unless you are very short indeed.

Incidentally in Broadies book he compares a 90 golfer and a pro golfer at driving distance and accuracy the pr golfer hits the ball 295 yds which is 70 yds longer than the 90 golfer or about 30% longer . But is off line miss is 3.4 degrees rather than 6.5 degrees which is about 90% more accurate.

 

[Backache]

No, it is independent of the type of course. Longer still wins, partly because the accuracy loss with longer still does not outweigh the gain, and partly because the longer the player, the better the accuracy when layup or avoiding hazards is paramount. Even if 220 yards out is the strategically best place to put the tee shot and the long man isnt pumping it 300, the long player hitting his 5 iron will be more accurate than the shorter player who has to hit a driver to get there.

Where do you get your information from that it is independent of course type?
Lou Stagner one of the stats gurus predicted that America would lose the Ryder cup because they were longer but less accurate which did not suit the course in Rome.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Are tour pro stats and examples really of use when using it as a basis for improving 15 handicappers who don’t practice much and just play once a week?

Yes

 

[Backsticks]

Where do you get your information from that it is independent of course type?
Lou Stagner one of the stats gurus predicted that America would lose the Ryder cup because they were longer but less accurate which did not suit the course in Rome.

We are talking about golfers globally here and the very strong correlation that longer is better. In the overall scheme, these two teams occupy a tiny point at the extremely skilled end of the range and there is almost nothing between them. Tight margins, and small factors can make a difference.

 

[Backache]

We are talking about golfers globally here and the very strong correlation that longer is better. In the overall scheme, these two teams occupy a tiny point at the extremely skilled end of the range and there is almost nothing between them. Tight margins, and small factors can make a difference.

If you're saying longer tends to be better I wouldn't demur . Clearly the advantage to hit the ball a long way is an advantage in golf . So is the ability to hit the ball straight. Courses with tight out of bounds or rough close to the faiarway where you can lose the ball should logically prefer straighter golfers over longer golfers , have you any data that suggests otherwise?

 

[Backsticks]

If you're saying longer tends to be better I wouldn't demur . Clearly the advantage to hit the ball a long way is an advantage in golf . So is the ability to hit the ball straight. Courses with tight out of bounds or rough close to the faiarway where you can lose the ball should logically prefer straighter golfers over longer golfers , have you any data that suggests otherwise?

The longer golfer doesnt have to hit it longer all the time. He still maintains his advantage by being able to hit a shorter club the same distance as the shorter golfer hitting a longer one.
But another element I think some are also mistaking, is a stronger correlation between distance and (in)accuracy than exists in reality. This is the 'Id rather be short but in the fairway than long and in the rough' fallacy. It is not a binary thing. In fact, the correlation is small. Golfers of all levels have fairway hit % in a similar window.

 

[Backache]

The longer golfer doesnt have to hit it longer all the time. He still maintains his advantage by being able to hit a shorter club the same distance as the shorter golfer hitting a longer one.
But another element I think some are also mistaking, is a stronger correlation between distance and (in)accuracy than exists in reality. This is the 'Id rather be short but in the fairway than long and in the rough' fallacy. It is not a binary thing. In fact, the correlation is small. Golfers of all levels have fairway hit % in a similar window.

I certainly agree that length and accuracy are not mutually exclusive in fact I believe there is a small positive correlation between the two. My question was have you any data that supports the belief that there are not courses that suit accuracy rather than length?

 

[Deleted member 23270]

No, it is independent of the type of course. Longer still wins, partly because the accuracy loss with longer still does not outweigh the gain, and partly because the longer the player, the better the accuracy when layup or avoiding hazards is paramount. Even if 220 yards out is the strategically best place to put the tee shot and the long man isnt pumping it 300, the long player hitting his 5 iron will be more accurate than the shorter player who has to hit a driver to get there.

Did you not read my last sentence or was it too difficult for you to understand?

 

[Backsticks]

I certainly agree that length and accuracy are not mutually exclusive in fact I believe there is a small positive correlation between the two. My question was have you any data that supports the belief that there are not courses that suit accuracy rather than length?

Yes, the data that distance is dominant full stop. In what conceivable situation would a course suit accuracy above length ? If you have the length, you can always play shorter. If you are shorter, you cannot switch on length according to the course.

 

[Backache]

Yes, the data the distance is dominant full stop. In what conceivable situation would a course suit accuracy above length ? If you have the length, you can always play shorter. If you are shorter, you cannot switch on length according to the course.

The reason why people play shorter is for increased accuracy there is no other reason other than a hazard occupying the entire fairway.

Some people are long and wild with drivers but a little shorter and more accurate with three woods, and yes I know this is not typical but they occur. Are you saying that you have data which says that there are no courses where in this circumstance this golfer is better off using his three wood?
Could you please identify the data rather than assert its existence.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

I think what is being said is longer is better.
And the more loft on a club, the less offline typically it will go (not always but generally speaking) in the same golfers hand.
So Mr long if he plays on a course that requires super accurate play will still fair well as he could hit his 5w as, or more accurately as Mr Accurate and not lose out on distance, if they both lay up to 180 out of the green Mr Long will have a 7i and Mr Accurate a 5i and the old proximity odds will likely leave Mr Long closer to the hole after those shots.
The other advantage Mr Long has is that if there is a tee shot where he will be less punished he can pull the big dog. Mr Accurate will never be able to pull out an extra 30yards as that doesn’t exist in his game.

 

[Backsticks]

The reason why people play shorter is for increased accuracy there is no other reason other than a hazard occupying the entire fairway.

Some people are long and wild with drivers but a little shorter and more accurate with three woods, and yes I know this is not typical but they occur. Are you saying that you have data which says that there are no courses where in this circumstance this golfer is better off using his three wood?
Could you please identify the data rather than assert its existence.

I am agreeing there is a circumstance where a golfer will be better off playing his three wood - BUT - the longer golfer still has the advantage! The shorter golfer would have to play his driver to put the ball in the same place - this is a disavantage compared to the longer hitter who can hit the three wood.

 

[Deleted member 23270]

Assumptions being made that Mr Long can hit it straight.

 

[Backsticks]

Assumptions being made that Mr Long can hit it straight.

Not assuming. Factual. (table from mygolfspy)

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Assumptions being made that Mr Long can hit it straight.

Also assumptions being made that Mr Short can hit it straight!

The vast majority of us are not more accurate with a 3 wood than a driver. Or even long irons.

 

[Backache]

I am agreeing there is a circumstance where a golfer will be better off playing his three wood - BUT - the longer golfer still has the advantage! The shorter golfer would have to play his driver to put the ball in the same place - this is a disavantage compared to the longer hitter who can hit the three wood.

I see no data
However
Lets take the not unusual situation of two golfers in a club both pretty decent off the same handicap of 3.5 one is a bit older than the other and a bit straighter with his game but not as long they hit the ball around 220 and 250 yds on their drives, both have pretty decent and very similar short games strokes gained being indistinguishable on putting and shots inside 50 yds. They play and have derived their handicaps on the same tree lined parkland course with reasonably generous but not excessively generous fairways. One of them hits it into the trees a bit more often so his advantage in length is negated a little by his lack of straightness.

They go away to play a couple of other course one is wide open with rough that is barely distinguishable from the fairway and another is a tight heathland course where off fairway shots are frequently lost.Do either player have an advantage in playing each other on the different courses?

 

[Deleted member 25575]

I see no data
However
Lets take the not unusual situation of two golfers in a club both pretty decent off the same handicap of 3.5 one is a bit older than the other and a bit straighter with his game but not as long they hit the ball around 220 and 250 yds on their drives, both have pretty decent and very similar short games strokes gained being indistinguishable on putting and shots inside 50 yds. They play and have derived their handicaps on the same tree lined parkland course with reasonably generous but not excessively generous fairways. One of them hits it into the trees a bit more often so his advantage in length is negated a little by his lack of straightness.

They go away to play a couple of other course one is wide open with rough that is barely distinguishable from the fairway and another is a tight heathland course where off fairway shots are frequently lost.Do either player have an advantage in playing each other on the different courses?

Yes, the longer player has the advantage on the wide open course, there is less risk for his / her offline shots being in trouble, so the longer players length is a definite plus.
And on the tighter course, the longer player has the advantage too. Both will miss somewhere in the region of 50% of the fairways, see the table posted above, so if the slightly straighter player hits one of 2 more fairways, the advantage from that will be more than offset by the fact that when both hit the fairway the longer guy has less club in and thus will be closer to the hole to his/her putting or short game of the same standard will put them ahead, and they will have even more advantage when both miss the fairway as they will have a significantly shorter club in and a much better chance to get within that 50y and in range than the shorter guy.
If they played both courses 1000 times, the longer guy would score better as an average. On any single round either could play better on the day, but over time the longer guy wins

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Yes, the longer player has the advantage on the wide open course, there is less risk for his / her offline shots being in trouble, so the longer players length is a definite plus.
And on the tighter course, the longer player has the advantage too. Both will miss somewhere in the region of 50% of the fairways, see the table posted above, so if the slightly straighter player hits one of 2 more fairways, the advantage from that will be more than offset by the fact that when both hit the fairway the longer guy has less club in and thus will be closer to the hole to his/her putting or short game of the same standard will put them ahead, and they will have even more advantage when both miss the fairway as they will have a significantly shorter club in and a much better chance to get within that 50y and in range than the shorter guy.
If they played both courses 1000 times, the longer guy would score better as an average. On any single round either could play better on the day, but over time the longer guy wins

But, If they are both 3.5 handicap with the same short game skills, then the shorter player is not missing the fairway 50% of the time, or the same amount as the longer hitter

 

[Backache]

Yes, the longer player has the advantage on the wide open course, there is less risk for his / her offline shots being in trouble, so the longer players length is a definite plus.
And on the tighter course, the longer player has the advantage too. Both will miss somewhere in the region of 50% of the fairways, see the table posted above, so if the slightly straighter player hits one of 2 more fairways, the advantage from that will be more than offset by the fact that when both hit the fairway the longer guy has less club in and thus will be closer to the hole to his/her putting or short game of the same standard will put them ahead, and they will have even more advantage when both miss the fairway as they will have a significantly shorter club in and a much better chance to get within that 50y and in range than the shorter guy.
If they played both courses 1000 times, the longer guy would score better as an average. On any single round either could play better on the day, but over time the longer guy wins

Do you have any data to back up your assertions ?
The table above are averages at each handicap level. Different golfers will have different percentages hit within each handicap. I have already stated that the shorter older chap is more accurate and hits more fairways.