The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Slime]

For me at my lowly level, driving is more important ..................................... no question.

 

[bobmac]

For me, attitude and momentum are very important.
Nice drive, nice second shot and a 3 putt bogey 5 can often have a detrimental affect on the next tee shot a few minutes later.
However.....
A drive OOB, a good second shot with the second ball and a single putt is still a bogey 5 on the card, but a massive difference in the mood on the next tee where you feel happy you rescued a bogey.

But as has been said before...how do you know you're hitting it further if you can't find it.
To be good at golf, all departments have to be good....nowhere to hide.

 

[D-S]

For me at my lowly level, driving is more important ..................................... no question.

Do you mean that wild driving is costing you or that if you hit exactly the same shot pattern but 15 yards longer that would greatly improve your scores?

 

[Deleted member 25575]

“A three putt….” Yes, with a spectacular 4th putt.

Every shot has a value, i.e. one shot. Each shot is crucial to your final score. Hit 14 good drives and you will have saved a number of shots. Hit X number of good iron shots, especially if they give good birdie chances, and you will save shots. Drain some good putts and you will have saved shots.

Those with a low handicap or scratch+ value every single shot equally. Play off 18 and you can afford a duff on every hole. Play off scratch and you can’t.

I’m not sure this is quite right either.
You will have a number of putts in each round which are actual real gimmie length, now, even in a comp where you will finish them up, those 3 inch putts have a tiny negligible chance of going wrong, they still count for 1 shot, but their value is not the same as a drive hit 250 down the middle, they count the same number of strokes, but a good or great tee shot has a lot more value to your round than a 3 inch tap in

 

[Backache]

Yes, I see this thread as more of an updating those still think this was a debate, when in fact, it has niw been definitively resolved. Long game, and pretty much even how far you hit it, defines your average game. Putting is a trimming on that that has a big influence on how you will score in you range on a given day.

I don't think how far you hit it defines your game though it may put an upper limit on it. Dispersion is important as well.
Arccos data suggests the driving distance of a 20 handicap 18 year old is the same as a scratch 70 year old.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I’m not sure this is quite right either.
You will have a number of putts in each round which are actual real gimmie length, now, even in a comp where you will finish them up, those 3 inch putts have a tiny negligible chance of going wrong, they still count for 1 shot, but their value is not the same as a drive hit 250 down the middle, they count the same number of strokes, but a good or great tee shot has a lot more value to your round than a 3 inch tap in

The good or great tee shot has the same value as any length of putt. That value is 1.

The slightly way wayward drive still has a value of 1.
It may have a slightly detrimental effect on the potential value of the next shot. And perhaps a lingering detrimental effect on the shot after that.

A wayward 5ft putt has the value 2.
It has been known to have a lingering detrimental effect also.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

The good or great tee shot has the same value as any length of putt. That value is 1.

The slightly way wayward drive still has a value of 1.
It may have a slightly detrimental effect on the potential value of the next shot. And perhaps a lingering detrimental effect on the shot after that.

A wayward 5ft putt has the value 2.
It has been known to have a lingering detrimental effect also.

Take a look at the concept of strokes gained, then come back

 

[Voyager EMH]

Take a look at the concept of strokes gained, then come back

I've got loads of eggs to suck before I do that.

 

[Backsticks]

But as has been said before...how do you know you're hitting it further if you can't find it.

The key insight, which we have had just over the last decade, is that this classical way of looking at it oversimplifies and is incorrect.
'Longer but in the rough is no good' was the standard line.
The reality is that longer might be in the rough more, but only slightly more. But in the main, longer is simply longer, and so better scoring. What was just finger in the wind guessing, and generally coming down on the side 'Id rather be shorter but in the fairway', can now be calculated for the real answer. And it is that the benefit of length outweighs the increased waywardness. By a comfortable margin.

 

[Backsticks]

I've got loads of eggs to suck before I do that.

Steokes gained is how this conundrum was quantified and solved.
It is the mindset and understanding change that swept away a century of old pros tales and advice.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

If you make a 3 inch putt in a competition, you will gain no advantage on your competitors, everyone would make that putt, you neither lose nor gain.
If you put your drive 200 in the fairway, you will gain an advantage on those who top the ball or sling hook it OB or lose it in the trees at 280. You will lose advantage to those who say hit it 270 in the fairway, or 250 in the first cut or 210 in the fairway.
While both the 3 inch putt and the drive count as 1 on the scorecard, how they fair relative to your competitors is vast.

 

[bobmac]

The key insight, which we have had just over the last decade, is that this classical way of looking at it oversimplifies and is incorrect.
'Longer but in the rough is no good' was the standard line.
The reality is that longer might be in the rough more, but only slightly more. But in the main, longer is simply longer, and so better scoring. What was just finger in the wind guessing, and generally coming down on the side 'Id rather be shorter but in the fairway', can now be calculated for the real answer. And it is that the benefit of length outweighs the increased waywardness. By a comfortable margin.

I wasn't talking about being a bit wayward and being in the semi rough, I'm talking about the long walk back to the tee to hit another one.

 

[Backsticks]

I wasn't talking about being a bit wayward and being in the semi rough, I'm talking about the long walk back to the tee to hit another one.

The same point still applies.

 

[bobmac]

So 300 yards in the rough, lost ball, is better than 250 down the middle?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

So 300 yards in the rough, lost ball, is better than 250 down the middle?

Of course not.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

So 300 yards in the rough, lost ball, is better than 250 down the middle?

Nope, actually the opposite, you would lose strokes on that outcome.

However, over the course of a round, hitting each of your 14 drives 50y longer, will, over time, work out better overall even with some of them going OB. As you’ll still hit plenty of your 250 OB and plenty of your 300 in the fairway. The relative difference between OB/unplayable next shot from both the 250 and 300 hitter isn’t that big

 

[clubchamp98]

The way I look at it ( given most of our comps are Stableford)

If you don’t drive the ball decent , you don’t get a chance to put. For points anyway.

 

[bobmac]

As you’ll still hit plenty of your 250 OB and plenty of your 300 in the fairway. The relative difference between OB/unplayable next shot from both the 250 and 300 hitter isn’t that big

Disagree completely.
The whole point of swapping distance for accuracy is to improve consistency.

 

[bobmac]

Of course not.

Not according to some

But in the main, longer is simply longer, and so better scoring.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

It’s not a direct swap though. It isn’t one or the other.
You are/were a teaching pro Bob, you know that distance doesn’t need to come from swinging wildly faster, connecting more with the centre of the club face will for most handicap golfers result in more distance and quite probably better accuracy too