The Footie Thread

[rudebhoy]

Just read that Man Utd's flight to Newcastle was cancelled and they had to go by coach. No wonder they were so lethargic, the poor souls.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Just read that Man Utd's flight to Newcastle was cancelled and they had to go by coach. No wonder they were so lethargic, the poor souls.

Those sorts of flights are flat out obscene. There is no excuse for them. Utd aren't alone, far too many teams fly short distances, but they all need highlighting and shaming.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

My nomination for this weeks 'stupid footballer of the week', Ollie McBirnie of Sheff utd. Two yellow cards, same offence, not that far apart, 9 minutes. Well played . Just what a team at the bottom needs.

 

[rudebhoy]

Those sorts of flights are flat out obscene. There is no excuse for them. Utd aren't alone, far too many teams fly short distances, but they all need highlighting and shaming.

Absolutely. And how much time would they actually have saved by flying? It's a 3 hour drive tops.

 

[Swango1980]

My nomination for this weeks 'stupid footballer of the week', Ollie McBirnie of Sheff utd. Two yellow cards, same offence, not that far apart, 9 minutes. Well played . Just what a team at the bottom needs.

And the 1st one could have been a straight red, if officials felt elbowing someone in the head was worthy of such a punishment

 

[Swango1980]

Those sorts of flights are flat out obscene. There is no excuse for them. Utd aren't alone, far too many teams fly short distances, but they all need highlighting and shaming.

It is why Dennis Bergkamp was a martyr

 

[Swango1980]

The last paragraph hits the nail squarely on the head. My most recent visit to OT was for the Newcastle battering in the Carabao Cup, and the huge disconnect between those in the stands and those out on the pitch was sadly very evident.

The fans no longer really have any player who acts as a focal point. The exceptions are perhaps Hojlund and, more recently, Mainoo. It is abundantly clear that, whilst the faithful have a connection with individuals, they are really struggling to connect with the team as a whole. The frustration with the likes of Rashford is palpable, as any match going fan will tell you.

The manager can’t change that on his own. It needs the players to do it collectively, and any player unwilling or incapable of applying themselves should be shown the door.

I'm just over the moon someone has finally made it to my last paragraph

 

[nickjdavis]

I'm sure Newcastle players like Howe, but I doubt they give that effort for him. They do it for the toon fans. So often last night a Newcastle player bust a gut and won a tackle, then immediately celebrated with their fans.

That is a little bit simplistic and ignores what had happened at Newcastle over the last ten years or so.

All those banners and protests about Ashley...all the "we want our club back" and "we don't demand a team that wins, we just want a club that tries" slogans...the club have bought into that...the directors, the team management, the players and the fans.
We now have our club back, we have a team who are trying.

I'm not sure if people looking in were ever really aware of the level of "disengagement" the fans have felt in the later years of the rotten heartless Ashley tenure that are now fast fading into a distant memory. I'm sure many just thought "oh it's just the Geordies thinking they are a big club and deserve to be winning trophies".

Far from it.

The players are doing it for the fans, the club and the management and for themselves...they have pride in what and who they represent...but be in no doubt...EH is very much at the heart of everything that happens and the players are very much doing it for him.

 

[Swango1980]

That is a little bit simplistic and ignores what had happened at Newcastle over the last ten years or so.

All those banners and protests about Ashley...all the "we want our club back" and "we don't demand a team that wins, we just want a club that tries" slogans...the club have bought into that...the directors, the team management, the players and the fans.
We now have our club back, we have a team who are trying.

I'm not sure if people looking in were ever really aware of the level of "disengagement" the fans have felt in the later years of the rotten heartless Ashley tenure that are now fast fading into a distant memory. I'm sure many just thought "oh it's just the Geordies thinking they are a big club and deserve to be winning trophies".

Far from it.

The players are doing it for the fans, the club and the management and for themselves...they have pride in what and who they represent...but be in no doubt...EH is very much at the heart of everything that happens and the players are very much doing it for him.

That is what I mean, but in an already long post, I didn't feel the need to expand further.

Under previous ownership, I doubt anyone Newcastle manager would achieve medium to long term success at club (at least in terms of desire, passion and fan excitement), unless Ashley was gone.

Same at Man Utd. Plus, although the club have spent money in the transfer market, they are really really poor at it. Trying to wonder when I started to think it was going very wrong. Maybe when we signed Fellani?

 

[Hobbit]

There are problems everywhere, Bri.

Maguire has had a truly awful time of it, but appears to have turned a corner. But one thing I have never questioned has been his attitude - that has been exemplary throughout, as I have accepted more than once.

Scott McTominay is another whose application has always been first class. Nobody can fault his work ethic, and he has weighed in with some important goals this season. But is he up to it if United want to challenge for trophies? I’m not so sure.

But Rashford? There is a player with talent, of that there is no doubt, but his ethic is nowhere near at the level of the other two. Absolutely nowhere near. He was singled out by Alan Shearer on MOTD for all the points I raised in my earlier post. Whilst I accept he is not a defender, it is exceptionally naive for any football follower to suggest he is not part of the problem. A team defends as a team, and when the forwards are as lazy as Marcus Rashford then the pressure that places on more defensive players is always going to lead to goals being conceded.

His performances this season have been poor. Last night he was an absolute disgrace to the shirt.

I think your comment re McTwominay highlights one of Utd’s issues. I don’t think he’s good enough for Utd. A journeyman pro but he’s not going to blow you away. And Utd have also been buying journeymen for years now. Try and name 5 stellar buys that Utd have brought in, in the last few seasons. There’s a few that have had a run of good form but even they have gone awol for weeks on end.

Utd need a club captain like Keane who rattles player’s cages. And the recruitment dept needs to up their game. A clear out? There’s millions benchwarming that could be turned into new players.

 

[Swango1980]

I think your comment re McTwominay highlights one of Utd’s issues. I don’t think he’s good enough for Utd. A journeyman pro but he’s not going to blow you away. And Utd have also been buying journeymen for years now. Try and name 5 stellar buys that Utd have brought in, in the last few seasons. There’s a few that have had a run of good form but even they have gone awol for weeks on end.

Utd need a club captain like Keane who rattles player’s cages. And the recruitment dept needs to up their game. A clear out? There’s millions benchwarming that could be turned into new players.

I find it interesting that when there is even a slight possibility of getting the signature of a player with a proven great mentality, Utd don't even try.

Didn't go for Kane. Didn't go for Rice. Couldn't get Bellingham (yes, he was young, but he looked to have a mega mentality from a very young age).

I suspect the guys who do deals at Utd are completely out of their depth, and shy away from signings like those. Knowing they'd be competing with other big clubs. Instead, they spend almost the same amount of cash on easy signings. Young unproven players, or maybe big egos looking for a big pay day.

Compare a pro to us, the difference is 99% technical and physical. Compare pros from top clubs with each other, they all have quality technical and physical attributes. So the difference is probably well over 50% mental. Maybe 80 to 90%. You're right Utd need some big, strong personalities who love fighting when things are tough. But I think Utd are inept at finding such qualities in players when they go into market.

 

[srixon 1]

He is if his cheap conceding of possession, failure to press, failure to track back and all round stinking attitude has contributed towards those stats.

If you watched the game, Stu, you cannot have failed to see the number of chances United gave up down their right flank, surely?

Rashford is a huge part of the problem, as anyone who has watched United this season with a critical eye will tell you.

Just watched match of the day. During the actual highlights Rashford was not mentioned once. His name only popped up during the analysis afterwards when Shearer berated him for ‘not feeling it’. I’m no Manure fan but something is definitely wrong at the club.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Is Casemerio injured or out of favour right now? He seemed to be a level above for utd last season but I'm not hearing him this year ( I rarely watch utd so miss this sort of thing)

 

[Billysboots]

I think your comment re McTwominay highlights one of Utd’s issues. I don’t think he’s good enough for Utd. A journeyman pro but he’s not going to blow you away. And Utd have also been buying journeymen for years now. Try and name 5 stellar buys that Utd have brought in, in the last few seasons. There’s a few that have had a run of good form but even they have gone awol for weeks on end.

Utd need a club captain like Keane who rattles player’s cages. And the recruitment dept needs to up their game. A clear out? There’s millions benchwarming that could be turned into new players.

Recruitment has been poor for well over a decade. As Swango1980 has already mentioned, an early sign was Fellaini. Brought in by Moyes because he was great for Moyes at Everton. Surely the recruiting people should have been saying hang on, he may have been a decent player in your Everton side, but United don’t play that way - let’s buy players who fit the current system.

Since then the approach has been farcical. Some breathtaking names have arrived but with little or no plan to back the signings up. Whoever was responsible for signing di Maria for a manager like LVG should have been put in stocks and had rotten tomatoes thrown at them. A joke of a decision. Radamel Falcao was probably a few years older than his agent claimed, and arrived carrying a serious injury. A stellar performer but some way past his best. The list is endless.

Move forward ten years and we are paying way over the odds for unproven players instead of competing for proven ones. I like Hojlund, so won’t focus on him, but £80m+ for Antony? Really? For that signing alone there are suits on the recruiting side who should be sacked. Sign him by all means, but at half the fee, or less. It’s not like there was a bidding war for his signature.

The other side of the coin, of course, are the ridiculously expensive long term contracts which appear to make moving players on a virtual impossibility. Who would want Rashford if he demands his United salary is matched? Nobody. And he’s no fool - why would he take a pay cut when he can flounce around at United on a long term deal allegedly worth £350k a week?

The first step towards sorting this out has to be an experienced sporting/football director, sitting down with the manager and agreeing a plan, and an effective scouting network identifying players who fit in with that plan. The scouting setup at United seems incapable of identifying players, seemingly relying on the manager to lead them.

The days of a manager having total control are long gone. Let the manager manage, the manager and coaching staff coach, and build an effective team supporting them which can give them the tools to do the job. That sort of structure still appears to be largely absent at OT, and for a club of that stature it’s unfathomable.

 

[Billysboots]

Is Casemerio injured or out of favour right now? He seemed to be a level above for utd last season but I'm not hearing him this year ( I rarely watch utd so miss this sort of thing)

Injured.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Recruitment has been poor for well over a decade. As Swango1980 has already mentioned, an early sign was Fellaini. Brought in by Moyes because he was great for Moyes at Everton. Surely the recruiting people should have been saying hang on, he may have been a decent player in your Everton side, but United don’t play that way - let’s buy players who fit the current system.

Since then the approach has been farcical. Some breathtaking names have arrived but with little or no plan to back the signings up. Whoever was responsible for signing di Maria for a manager like LVG should have been put in stocks and had rotten tomatoes thrown at them. A joke of a decision. Radamel Falcao was probably a few years older than his agent claimed, and arrived carrying a serious injury. A stellar performer but some way past his best. The list is endless.

Move forward ten years and we are paying way over the odds for unproven players instead of competing for proven ones. I like Hojlund, so won’t focus on him, but £80m+ for Antony? Really? For that signing alone there are suits on the recruiting side who should be sacked. Sign him by all means, but at half the fee, or less. It’s not like there was a bidding war for his signature.

The other side of the coin, of course, are the ridiculously expensive long term contracts which appear to make moving players on a virtual impossibility. Who would want Rashford if he demands his United salary is matched? Nobody. And he’s no fool - why would he take a pay cut when he can flounce around at United on a long term deal allegedly worth £350k a week?

The first step towards sorting this out has to be an experienced sporting/football director, sitting down with the manager and agreeing a plan, and an effective scouting network identifying players who fit in with that plan. The scouting setup at United seems incapable of identifying players, seemingly relying on the manager to lead them.

The days of a manager having total control are long gone. Let the manager manage, the manager and coaching staff coach, and build an effective team supporting them which can give them the tools to do the job. That sort of structure still appears to be largely absent at OT, and for a club of that stature it’s unfathomable.

ten Hag seems to want to sign a lot of ex Ajax players aswell, I mean onana, Antony and Martinez . Are any of them good enough for the fees that have been laid out? I know I will be biased here but kudas is the same age as Antony, worked with ten Hag at Ajax , cost half the fee laid out for antony? I'd question his player judgement if he thought he was a better prospect for those prices anyways.

I agree you need a proper recruitment and scouting system. Managers should just stick to coaching what's in their squad

 

[Billysboots]

ten Hag seems to want to sign a lot of ex Ajax players aswell, I mean onana, Antony and Martinez . Are any of them good enough for the fees that have been laid out? I know I will be biased here but kudas is the same age as Antony, worked with ten Hag at Ajax , cost half the fee laid out for antony? I'd question his player judgement if he thought he was a better prospect for those prices anyways.

I agree you need a proper recruitment and scouting system. Managers should just stick to coaching what's in their squad

I like Martinez a lot. He has been a big miss, and was clearly rushed back from injury before he was ready, hence the latest absence with a recurrence of it. And I am probably in a minority, but I’m happy to give Onana time. He has made mistakes, for sure, but I have also seen lots of positives. I’ve mentioned it before but De Gea was absolutely dreadful when he arrived - far worse than Onana. Patience may well be rewarded.

But I do tend to agree that there seems to be something of a reliance on buying players ETH has worked with previously, and he did so in a vastly inferior league. That is where a solid support structure is clearly required - to lessen one individual’s influence on how the millions are spent.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

I like Martinez a lot. He has been a big miss, and was clearly rushed back from injury before he was ready, hence the latest absence with a recurrence of it. And I am probably in a minority, but I’m happy to give Onana time. He has made mistakes, for sure, but I have also seen lots of positives. I’ve mentioned it before but De Gea was absolutely dreadful when he arrived - far worse than Onana. Patience may well be rewarded.

But I do tend to agree that there seems to be something of a reliance on buying players ETH has worked with previously, and he did so in a vastly inferior league. That is where a solid support structure is clearly required - to lessen one individual’s influence on how the millions are spent.

You wouldn't mind so much if they were bargains coming in to compliment some top level signings aswell right? I mean £80 million on antony .. if it had been say 35 million on him whilst making solid proven signings would , to me anyways, seem a lot better.

Onana will prob prove a good signing long term but when the set up in front of him is so poor. I mean yes shaw is good at filling in at CB but surely it's better to play varane and then have Shaw at lb .. rather than out of position unnecessarily

 

[Billysboots]

You wouldn't mind so much if they were bargains coming in to compliment some top level signings aswell right? I mean £80 million on antony .. if it had been say 35 million on him whilst making solid proven signings would , to me anyways, seem a lot better.

Onana will prob prove a good signing long term but when the set up in front of him is so poor. I mean yes shaw is good at filling in at CB but surely it's better to play varane and then have Shaw at lb .. rather than out of position unnecessarily

Or play Sergio Reguilon at left back instead of putting Dalot there. ETH does make some curious selections of players out of position so he can accommodate others elsewhere.

The glaringly obvious one for me is on the flanks. If he is so keen to give Garnacho a run, and I agree he should, then rather than shoe horning Rashford into his team by playing him out of position on the right, simply drop him. Play Antony on the right, or Pellistri.

If a side is struggling, and United quite clearly are, then at the very least a manager surely has to either put players in their favoured roles or drop them altogether if they can’t be accommodated in those favoured roles. By playing them in positions where they are uncomfortable then you must surely be adding to the general confusion.

I’ll make an exception in Luke Shaw’s case. Every time I have seen him at centre half he has been outstanding. He’s clearly comfortable there.

EDIT: To clarify a point, Rashford being out of position does not impact on his failure to press or track back. They’re basics which he cannot be bothered with regardless of where he plays it seems.

 

[Swango1980]

Or play Sergio Reguilon at left back instead of putting Dalot there. ETH does make some curious selections of players out of position so he can accommodate others elsewhere.

The glaringly obvious one for me is on the flanks. If he is so keen to give Garnacho a run, and I agree he should, then rather than shoe horning Rashford into his team by playing him out of position on the right, simply drop him. Play Antony on the right, or Pellistri.

If a side is struggling, and United quite clearly are, then at the very least a manager surely has to either put players in their favoured roles or drop them altogether if they can’t be accommodated in those favoured roles. By playing them in positions where they are uncomfortable then you must surely be adding to the general confusion.

I’ll make an exception in Luke Shaw’s case. Every time I have seen him at centre half he has been outstanding. He’s clearly comfortable there.

EDIT: To clarify a point, Rashford being out of position does not impact on his failure to press or track back. They’re basics which he cannot be bothered with regardless of where he plays it seems.

It is almost like Rashford had written in his contract that he must start and play at least 80 minutes in every game, if fit, otherwise he had to be paid an extra £100,000 a week, which comes out of ten Hags salary.

I'd rather have Sancho than Rashford right now.