The Footie Thread

[Swango1980]

You make some valid points but this is going to take money and time. Time is definitely something managers seems short off at Old Trafford and there is no guarantee any big money signings won't be Maguires or others come in with a big ego and upset the dressing room. Ronaldho now seems like a huge mistake and you can't say he's looked like being a key player week in, week out. I would prefer Cavani of the two

If Utd hadn't got Ronaldo, what would the alternative have been? Rely on Cavani? I love Cavani, but he has had some very quiet games lately. Not really the strikers fault, the team is just not ticking, or sustaining early momentum. We'd probably have had to rely on Greenwood up front, a position Utd have not trusted him consistently up to now, and with recent developments that would have turned out as a nightmare (I wonder how much was known about Greenwood's private life at the club before it came out in the press?). We'd then have to use Rashford or Martial up front, which was a failed experiment under Ole.

So, Ronaldo was, in my opinion, a quality signing, albeit a short term solution. Everyone knows he can put the ball in the net. United were not in the market for a long term striker last season (although I thought they should have been, instead of chasing Sancho, albeit I still hope he will come good). Even if they had got in a striker, and they were willing to cover a lot of ground, it is clear the other Utd players are unable to press anyway. I watch Rashford bust a lung to run forward when we are in possession. When out of possession, he walks back and assumes someone else will do the defending. So, a new striker would then probably be criticised for not being in the penalty area enough, a criticism made of Kane on a regular basis.

Since Ole arrived, there has generally been credit given to a lot of the big signings, along with some of the players they got rid off early on. Bruno was a really positive signing. We were in desperate need of a centre back, and Maguire was seen as a great player to add to the team. He was never a VVD, but he looked a class above what we had (even if we paid over the odds), and not many would have predicted his severe loss of confidence and form this season. Varane was also a great buy, and I still think he looks a good asset.

But, regardless of the players that are brought in, Utd seem to revert back to the norm. Low confidence, or an attitude of "we play for Utd, we don't need to work hard" attitude. I don't know if that is because there are a group of players who simply have a stinking attitude that rubs of on the team and/or the staff are unable to create a positive atmosphere at the club that make players WANT to work hard (it is easy to say the amount of money they earn should make that a given, but it is all relative, and I'm sure many just take it for granted that this is their life, earn loads of money, be a footballer, and be cool on tiktok). Personally, I think if Utd invested in a long term quality striker and 2 quality central midfielders, we could have a fantastic team. Yet, I reckon within a month or 2, players would be sulking, blaming everyone on social media but themselves and the new guys would look a shadow of their former selves. So, it might be the most important thing is to get rid of the right people from the club before getting the right ones in.

Nobody takes Man Utd seriously anymore. Opposing fans mock them, Utd fans despair. Opponents know they have a soft core, and know that if they simply work hard and fight, Utd will often crumble, regardless if there is a gulf in quality.

 

[Bdill93]

The midfield is key and but I don't think Utd had a top midfield since 2003. Keane was never replaced and Giggs to his credit morphed into a CM. Utd won 5 titles from 2007-2013 with a really patchy midfield. I know the game has changed since then though. A striker, decent DM and a RB are absolute must buys.

I really like Zapata at Atalanta - he's 30 but has pace, power and is a total beast. Similar to Saha back in the day. But Utd should go all out for Haaland, if they're serious. Rice is an obvious choice as he's a DM and can play a bit too. Very good influence in the dressing room and a natural leader. RB needs addressing, Matty Cash at Villa would be a good shout.

He's got absolutely no final ball at all. Great defensively and gets in all the right positions going forward but the man just cannot delver a ball. Id sell for anything over 30m.

Obviously hope he can be coached to be better if he doesn't leave but he's reaaalllyy starting to do my head in wasting chance after chance.

 

[Swango1980]

He's got absolutely no final ball at all. Great defensively and gets in all the right positions going forward but the man just cannot delver a ball. Id sell for anything over 30m.

Obviously hope he can be coached to be better if he doesn't leave but he's reaaalllyy starting to do my head in wasting chance after chance.

Utd would have no problems with that, look how they transformed Wan Bissaka into one of the worlds best attacking full backs with a deadly delivery...

 

[Bdill93]

Utd would have no problems with that, look how they transformed Wan Bissaka into one of the worlds best attacking full backs with a deadly delivery...

Exactly... Honestly don't think that's your biggest hole at the moment either.

Go get a reaaaaaall S***house CDM and half of your problems will be solved.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If Utd hadn't got Ronaldo, what would the alternative have been? Rely on Cavani? I love Cavani, but he has had some very quiet games lately. Not really the strikers fault, the team is just not ticking, or sustaining early momentum. We'd probably have had to rely on Greenwood up front, a position Utd have not trusted him consistently up to now, and with recent developments that would have turned out as a nightmare (I wonder how much was known about Greenwood's private life at the club before it came out in the press?). We'd then have to use Rashford or Martial up front, which was a failed experiment under Ole.

So, Ronaldo was, in my opinion, a quality signing, albeit a short term solution. Everyone knows he can put the ball in the net. United were not in the market for a long term striker last season (although I thought they should have been, instead of chasing Sancho, albeit I still hope he will come good). Even if they had got in a striker, and they were willing to cover a lot of ground, it is clear the other Utd players are unable to press anyway. I watch Rashford bust a lung to run forward when we are in possession. When out of possession, he walks back and assumes someone else will do the defending. So, a new striker would then probably be criticised for not being in the penalty area enough, a criticism made of Kane on a regular basis.

Since Ole arrived, there has generally been credit given to a lot of the big signings, along with some of the players they got rid off early on. Bruno was a really positive signing. We were in desperate need of a centre back, and Maguire was seen as a great player to add to the team. He was never a VVD, but he looked a class above what we had (even if we paid over the odds), and not many would have predicted his severe loss of confidence and form this season. Varane was also a great buy, and I still think he looks a good asset.

But, regardless of the players that are brought in, Utd seem to revert back to the norm. Low confidence, or an attitude of "we play for Utd, we don't need to work hard" attitude. I don't know if that is because there are a group of players who simply have a stinking attitude that rubs of on the team and/or the staff are unable to create a positive atmosphere at the club that make players WANT to work hard (it is easy to say the amount of money they earn should make that a given, but it is all relative, and I'm sure many just take it for granted that this is their life, earn loads of money, be a footballer, and be cool on tiktok). Personally, I think if Utd invested in a long term quality striker and 2 quality central midfielders, we could have a fantastic team. Yet, I reckon within a month or 2, players would be sulking, blaming everyone on social media but themselves and the new guys would look a shadow of their former selves. So, it might be the most important thing is to get rid of the right people from the club before getting the right ones in.

Nobody takes Man Utd seriously anymore. Opposing fans mock them, Utd fans despair. Opponents know they have a soft core, and know that if they simply work hard and fight, Utd will often crumble, regardless if there is a gulf in quality.

Don’t you also need two quality CB’s , a right back and most of all a top quality manager

Maguires issue isn’t a confidence one it’s an ability one - he just isn’t a top level CB , not quick enough , poor with the ball , poor positioning , he gets turned inside and out by any forward with a touch of ability - but he can head a ball

It’s quite staggering that there are big issues in the team and lots of players need to be bought - yet over the last 5 years or so no other club has spent as much
where the heck has all that money been spent on

 

[HomerJSimpson]

United simply need a huge rebuild from back to front. Not sure how long De Gea has at the top level. The defence (Perhaps with Varane as an exception) is poor and easily got at. Nothing in midfield in terms of holding and protecting the back four and providing a service to the forwards. The wide players aren't delivering telling balls or getting past full backs. Who will get the goals once Ronaldho goes. Greenwood is done at United irrespective of the verdict and Rashford looks like a lost soul. It will cost millions to rebuild to the levels they were at, and they need to get the deadwood out first. That means United could be missing from any European comps and a midtable team for a few seasons. The issue with that is the fans won't accept that, the manager won't get enough time and it'll carry on being a managerial merry-go-round with panic buys, plastering over the cracks and wondering why they can't make top four

 

[Liverbirdie]

Don’t you also need two quality CB’s , a right back and most of all a top quality manager

Maguires issue isn’t a confidence one it’s an ability one - he just isn’t a top level CB , not quick enough , poor with the ball , poor positioning , he gets turned inside and out by any forward with a touch of ability - but he can head a ball

It’s quite staggering that there are big issues in the team and lots of players need to be bought - yet over the last 5 years or so no other club has spent as much
where the heck has all that money been spent on

I've just done 5 minutes research and come up with a team Liverpool could field for the same amount of money as man U's top 3 signings - Pogba, Sancho and McGuire - is that about 240 million?

From memory or a quick google, I think our transfer fees were:-

Alison - 66 mill
TAA - free
Matip - free
Robbo 8 mill
Gomez - 3.5 mill
Milner - free
Curtis Jones - free
Hendo - 16 mill ?
Mane - 37 mill?
Salah - 38 mill?
Firminho - 29 mill

197.50 mill approximately

If I throw in an Angel Di Maria, I could also get a few on the subs bench such as an Elliot (4.3 mill) and some fella called VVD 76 mill.

11-13 of our current first teamers for 3-4 of man U's most expensive, not including Lukaku.

I'm sure a Burnley fan could get about 60 odd players going back 10 years for that though.

 

[fundy]

I've just done 5 minutes research and come up with a team Liverpool could field for the same amount of money as man U's top 3 signings - Pogba, Sancho and McGuire - is that about 240 million?

From memory or a quick google, I think our transfer fees were:-

Alison - 66 mill
TAA - free
Matip - free
Robbo 8 mill
Gomez - 3.5 mill
Milner - free
Curtis Jones - free
Hendo - 16 mill ?
Mane - 37 mill?
Salah - 38 mill?
Firminho - 29 mill

197.50 mill approximately

If I throw in an Angel Di Maria, I could also get a few on the subs bench such as an Elliot (4.3 mill) and some fella called VVD 76 mill.

11-13 of our current first teamers for 3-4 of man U's most expensive, not including Lukaku.

I'm sure a Burnley fan could get about 60 odd players going back 10 years for that though.

almost like you havent spent 55m on keita, 40m on fabinho, 40m jota, 40m on diaz, 36m on konate, 35m on oxlade chamberlain, 20m on thiago or do we not count that 1/4bn + too?

 

[Swango1980]

Don’t you also need two quality CB’s , a right back and most of all a top quality manager

Maguires issue isn’t a confidence one it’s an ability one - he just isn’t a top level CB , not quick enough , poor with the ball , poor positioning , he gets turned inside and out by any forward with a touch of ability - but he can head a ball

It’s quite staggering that there are big issues in the team and lots of players need to be bought - yet over the last 5 years or so no other club has spent as much
where the heck has all that money been spent on

Probably one CB, I rate Varane. Also, I'm trying to be semi realistic. I'm not expecting Utd try and find 11 world class players in every position. However, central midfield is a huge problem, as it leaves the defense hopelessly exposed, and offers no sustained pressure on the opposition when we have possession. So, I think we need to get that in place, then see what happens with Maguire.

Yes, we need a right back. Dalot seems a decent squad player, and as much as Wan Bissaka could be great in a dogged defensive side, I do not see him ever being able to offer much attacking threat.

Yes, we need a top manager who the board, and the fans will have patience with, trust and support. But, we know that is a decision that is expected before next season.

 

[Swango1980]

almost like you havent spent 55m on keita, 40m on fabinho, 40m jota, 40m on diaz, 36m on konate, 35m on oxlade chamberlain, 20m on thiago or do we not count that 1/4bn + too?

Shall we start a list with Keane, Schmeichel, Cantona, etc and compare to that lot?

There is no denying Utd have spent a lot of money and not got close to City in quite a few years, with Liverpool also generally well ahead.

Have Liverpool wasted any money over the years, in the many years they won nothing? Andy Carroll springs to mind.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Shall we start a list with Keane, Schmeichel, Cantona, etc and compare to that lot?

There is no denying Utd have spent a lot of money and not got close to City in quite a few years, with Liverpool also generally well ahead.

Have Liverpool wasted any money over the years, in the many years they won nothing? Andy Carroll springs to mind.

I’m not sure we have ever wasted money at the level Utd have over the last decade since they last won the title - Carroll at £30mil a snip compared to others

But we went through that period and it’s now Utd going through it

And we can always remember the words of Ryan Giggs

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Shall we start a list with Keane, Schmeichel, Cantona, etc and compare to that lot?

There is no denying Utd have spent a lot of money and not got close to City in quite a few years, with Liverpool also generally well ahead.

Have Liverpool wasted any money over the years, in the many years they won nothing? Andy Carroll springs to mind.

Benteke for £41m????

 

[Tashyboy]

almost like you havent spent 55m on keita, 40m on fabinho, 40m jota, 40m on diaz, 36m on konate, 35m on oxlade chamberlain, 20m on thiago or do we not count that 1/4bn + too?

that from a manager ( Klopp) who is quoted as saying

Other clubs can go out and spend money and collect top players. I want to do it differently. I would even do it differently if I could spend that money."

 

[fundy]

that from a manager ( Klopp) who is quoted as saying

Other clubs can go out and spend money and collect top players. I want to do it differently. I would even do it differently if I could spend that money."

think any of the top 6+ clubs in the prem are in very large glass houses on this, just degrees of size of the glass house!!!

 

[Swango1980]

I’m not sure we have ever wasted money at the level Utd have over the last decade since they last won the title - Carroll at £30mil a snip compared to others

But we went through that period and it’s now Utd going through it

And we can always remember the words of Ryan Giggs

View attachment 41184

Well, maybe he'll eat his words, but a few years to wait to find out?

No doubt United are relatively awful. But, I always have that feeling that if City or Liverpool lost their manager, they could potentially fall further than Utd are now. Clearly it cannot be proven, unless it happens.

Had Utd not had the finances or global reach, maybe they'd be even worse that they are now. They effectively earned a lot of this money and popularity during the Fergie era. But, I live in hope we get a great manager from somewhere, and he can point his finger at the negativities behind the scenes, get rid and start to rebuild.

 

[Tashyboy]

think any of the top 6+ clubs in the prem are in very large glass houses on this, just degrees of size of the glass house!!!

Totally agree, sometimes some folk forget there in glass houses. ?
Its strange talking about Utd looking to rebuild. I read a piece the other day where it quoted that City could field a team in 5 years time with the young talent they have developed and bought in. There’s a discussion about Utd not having a centre forward but I am sure Utd bought a lad off City Who was classed as a super kid Charlie McNeil.I would be tempted to Chuck him in.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

think any of the top 6+ clubs in the prem are in very large glass houses on this, just degrees of size of the glass house!!!

Think it’s a bit different when spending the money the club has earned as opposed to spending - debt , loans , owners personal money etc

Any money large or small we spend has come from income the club has generated- not always the case for a number of clubs

And that’s the point Klopp was alluding too

Many clubs can’t afford to waste money on failed signings - for some it’s no issue , they just go out and get another one to replace them without worrying about balancing the books

It’s like City somehow managing to make a profit during Covid when clubs made losses in commercial revenue- must have been all those “partners” helping them out allowing to spend £100mil on a player ( despite Pep saying they can’t spend £100mil on a player )

 

[Liverbirdie]

almost like you havent spent 55m on keita, 40m on fabinho, 40m jota, 40m on diaz, 36m on konate, 35m on oxlade chamberlain, 20m on thiago or do we not count that 1/4bn + too?

It depends on how you take my point?

Yes, we have spent all of that on the rest of the squad, just as Everton, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea have.

The point was that we can field a very good team of 11-13 players for the same cost that Man U spent on 3-4. That's also why I made the Burnley analogy - they are existing in the Prem on an absolute shoestring when you compare their squad to ours and theirs in the same way. Not sure if Brentford can do the same vs Burnley???

Agreed, we wasted loads of money in the 90's and 2000's the way Man U are doing now and it's why I can see the tell tale signs, although we had a lot of our best players taken by bigger predators, like Arsenal, when we were trying to rebuild. United don't seem to have that problem in the main, apart from the odd incident (Ronaldo to Real).

We do have a glass house built up over many years, not a diamond-encrusted, gold leaf, Lapis Lazuli filigree-ed FOC council house to shout out the window from though.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Shall we start a list with Keane, Schmeichel, Cantona, etc and compare to that lot?

There is no denying Utd have spent a lot of money and not got close to City in quite a few years, with Liverpool also generally well ahead.

Have Liverpool wasted any money over the years, in the many years they won nothing? Andy Carroll springs to mind.

Totally agree.

Man U's second great team (1996 onwards) were built on great scouting, recruitment, nurture and a few healthy big signings. The class of 92 plus big signings - I dont look negatively at this in any way.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I read a piece in the Manc evening news when City allegedly missed out on Messi and Ronaldo. Basically it said how would they fit in with Citys style of play. There’s lots of talk about Citys football, but when they don’t have the ball it’s high energy Press from all the players once they don’t have it. Ronaldo and Messi don’t have that same chase the ball energy now. City have not missed having either of them. So look at Utd with Cavani and Ronaldo. Theres not a chance that’s going to happen, a high press.
most of the Prem league has young energetic players. There’s no doubting Ronaldo and esp Cavanis class. But they are yesterdays players unfortunately.
There’s talk of Haaland and where he will go, but Utd with a wage bill for Pogba, Ronaldo and Haaland. ?
Looking forward to the Haaland saga and how it pans out. Come what may for Utd to have a shout in Haaland future 4th place is critical.

Do you think that City's system could still work with one "passenger" in the team that doesn't do the chasing and pressing? Passenger is in inverted commas because obviously Messi and Ronaldo are/have been world class players for many years and wouldn't really be a passenger but in terms of pressing it was the easiest word to use. Could you sacrifice one player from that high tempo to get a truly top player into your first 11? I'm actually thinking more in terms of having an out and out striker like Lewandowski, Haaland etc rather than the two mentioned, who is told to stay up front and just stick away some of the many chances that City create.

On your other point, I don't think it would be a Utd with Haaland, Pogba and Ronaldo on massive wages. I think Pogba and Ronaldo will both go at the end of the season so that will free up over half a million a week in wages.