The Footie Thread

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That being said, I've no doubt he probably deals with a huge amount of racism, given he is one of the best players in the world at one of the most high profile clubs in the world. Culturaly I'm not sure what it is like in Spain, but I'm sure he also gets a lot of it when travelling around Europe every season.
My understanding is that racism is quite prevalent in Spanish football but the local punishments have been somewhat lacking, and despite several attempts to pass legislation that increases the severity of punishments, not much has really changed since Spanish coach Luis Aragones was fined a couple of thousand Euros back in 2005 for racially abusing Thierry Henry.
 
But will a big suspension be on the way. If it went to the court of arbitration for sport I think they’d struggle to make it stick. Mbappe says he heard it and RM will back their man, rightly so in my opinion. Mbappe says other Benfica players heard it, but if they decide to turn around and say that they heard nothing of the sort and that their man is a good guy and wouldn’t say such things. Who then passes the punishment and can make it stick.

It’s a very messy situation and quite frankly any form of racism is abhorrent, there’s no place for it in sport or the world. But when it comes down to it they can’t factually prove it unless his team mates turn on him and can use the defence that players all cover their mouths when speaking.

Personally I hope he does get done for it and an example gets made of him but I just can’t see it happening.
Agreed it will be very difficult to punish him unless his team mates admit he did racially abuse Junior.

This is why I reckon they'll need to implement some sort of ruling in the future about players intentionally covering their mouths to hide what they are saying, when it is clear it is not to whisper compliments to an opponent. Otherwise, if any player in the world wants to racially abuse another player, it is too easy of a loop hole to cover your mouth so it is one persons word against another.
 
I think 2 v 1 is more credible than 1 v 1. If two are not enough, how many are?
Is it though! Mbappes comment state “Benfica players heard it”. If they turn round and say no we didn’t hear it at all it throws all doubt on Mbappes statement and then doubt can be placed against him also hearing what he says he did. , as they can say well if he lied about others hearing it what else could he be lying about.

Once that happens it’s back to 1v1 and no chance it sticks. It is an extremely messy situation and all relies on Benfica players backing up Mbappes statement which I can’t see happening.
 
Agreed it will be very difficult to punish him unless his team mates admit he did racially abuse Junior.

This is why I reckon they'll need to implement some sort of ruling in the future about players intentionally covering their mouths to hide what they are saying, when it is clear it is not to whisper compliments to an opponent. Otherwise, if any player in the world wants to racially abuse another player, it is too easy of a loop hole to cover your mouth so it is one persons word against another.
I absolutely agree, I can’t see the crime being punished as it’s to difficult to make it stick without Benfica turning on their own player.

But your point about players not being allowed to cover their mouths intentionally is one they could implement and help prevent this going unpunished in future.
 
Is it though! Mbappes comment state “Benfica players heard it”. If they turn round and say no we didn’t hear it at all it throws all doubt on Mbappes statement and then doubt can be placed against him also hearing what he says he did.

Once that happens it’s back to 1v1 and no chance it sticks. It is an extremely messy situation and all relies on Benfica players backing up Mbappes statement which I can’t see happening.
I know it was judged by a different organisation, but didn't Suarez get punished for racially abusing Evra? Perhaps it was different in that certain words were admitted to be used, but the context of them was said to be different. I think it was one persons word against another, and ultimately Evra was deemed a credible witness, Suarez not.

I suppose, givem it it not a court of law and so a criminal record is not being given out, football can choose to act based on probability, rather than beyond no reasonable doubt? So, if a panel decides that it is probable that something racist was used, they could still hand out a multi game ban and fine?
 
I know it was judged by a different organisation, but didn't Suarez get punished for racially abusing Evra? Perhaps it was different in that certain words were admitted to be used, but the context of them was said to be different. I think it was one persons word against another, and ultimately Evra was deemed a credible witness, Suarez not.

I suppose, givem it it not a court of law and so a criminal record is not being given out, football can choose to act based on probability, rather than beyond no reasonable doubt? So, if a panel decides that it is probable that something racist was used, they could still hand out a multi game ban and fine?
I genuinely couldn’t tell you what happened between Suarez and Evra, I know there was racial connotations but was long enough ago my simple brain doesn’t remember the finer details.

Ultimately football could dish out whatever punishment they think thinks the crime and I really hope he is punished. But the issue is we’re now in a world where football is worth multi millions and the player or Benfica could take it to court and argue so many things against this case if their players decide to back their man.

I don’t agree with it and I want him punished as racism is disgusting but we now live in a world of proof and the 2 v 1 don’t stack up if the Benfica players say the opposite.
 
I genuinely couldn’t tell you what happened between Suarez and Evra, I know there was racial connotations but was long enough ago my simple brain doesn’t remember the finer details.

Ultimately football could dish out whatever punishment they think thinks the crime and I really hope he is punished. But the issue is we’re now in a world where football is worth multi millions and the player or Benfica could take it to court and argue so many things against this case if their players decide to back their man.

I don’t agree with it and I want him punished as racism is disgusting but we now live in a world of proof and the 2 v 1 don’t stack up if the Benfica players say the opposite.
True.

But, on the flip side, when there are multi-millions of pounds in the game, and sponsorship is huge, a simple "it is one mans word against another, so we can't do anything" could be much much more damaging to them, than worrying about what Benfica do. Furthermore, it could also be extremely damaging to Benfica if they decide to robustly defend this, with no evidence that nothing bad was said except for the word of their player.
 
I genuinely couldn’t tell you what happened between Suarez and Evra, I know there was racial connotations but was long enough ago my simple brain doesn’t remember the finer details.

Ultimately football could dish out whatever punishment they think thinks the crime and I really hope he is punished. But the issue is we’re now in a world where football is worth multi millions and the player or Benfica could take it to court and argue so many things against this case if their players decide to back their man.

I don’t agree with it and I want him punished as racism is disgusting but we now live in a world of proof and the 2 v 1 don’t stack up if the Benfica players say the opposite.
I believe Suarez called Evra 'negrito' or something, which he pretty much admitted to because he thought it was fine to say that, people in his homeland say it all the time, etc. It was not fine to say that of course, but he was punished since he effectively admitted saying it.
 
I think 2 v 1 is more credible than 1 v 1. If two are not enough, how many are?

There are a lot of other people around and very little reaction - people closer than Mbappe as well

With Mbappe saying he saw what was said is also strange - is he just backing his teammate

Camavinga was right next to it and didn’t react

It’s not going to be clear cut - does look very suspicious
 
True.

But, on the flip side, when there are multi-millions of pounds in the game, and sponsorship is huge, a simple "it is one mans word against another, so we can't do anything" could be much much more damaging to them, than worrying about what Benfica do. Furthermore, it could also be extremely damaging to Benfica if they decide to robustly defend this, with no evidence that nothing bad was said except for the word of their player.
I’m not convinced it is damaging to Benfica, if their players state they didn’t hear anything and Mbappe is lying then them backing their man is smart money. They can call out Mbappe stating he was wrong and has lied and backing their players shows solidarity and will appeal to their fan base

@Arthur Wedge makes a very good point. What Mbappe said is strange and could be seen as just backing his team mate as others were just as close by and hadn’t reacted at all. As the man says it’s not clear cut , looks suspicious and ultimately I thinks regardless of my personal opinions on how disgusting racism is this one has a long way to go and can’t be proven either way.
 
I believe Suarez called Evra 'negrito' or something, which he pretty much admitted to because he thought it was fine to say that, people in his homeland say it all the time, etc. It was not fine to say that of course, but he was punished since he effectively admitted saying it.

Suarez had been in Europe long enough to understand - he was naive at best but clever at worst

But as he said in his homeland they use it all the time it seems
 
I believe Suarez called Evra 'negrito' or something, which he pretty much admitted to because he thought it was fine to say that, people in his homeland say it all the time, etc. It was not fine to say that of course, but he was punished since he effectively admitted saying it.
I worked with a mixed race Jamaican guy at work who is still a very good friend. When we were on nights we used to talk for an age of all things to do with his sexuality, his colour etc etc. it was an eye opener listening to things he had gone through in his life. He was married and later confessed to being gay, his wife was fantastic in her response. He was literally told never to come back to Jamaica because of his sexuality. Working at a coal mine with 1,000 men. He had a target on his forehead from the ignorant people because he was gay.
We were talking one night and one thing he said has always stuck in my mind “ it’s not what is said re the words, but how it was said”. He said “some things are said in jest, but others you can tell by there tone that what is said there is intentional hurt behind the words”.
The reason I say that I have just googled the word “ Negrito”. It is a centuries old word and in some instances it can be used as a term of affection. In others it can be a derogatory term. There is not a cat in hells chance do I believe that Suarez used that word as a term of affection.
 
There are a lot of other people around and very little reaction - people closer than Mbappe as well

With Mbappe saying he saw what was said is also strange - is he just backing his teammate

Camavinga was right next to it and didn’t react

It’s not going to be clear cut - does look very suspicious
It isn't that suspicious that certain players didn't react, that may be closer. People have different personalities and reactions. Someone may react instantly, others may be in shock and not believe what they heard nor how to react. There is a lot of noise in the stadium as well, so someone may have been focused on what the player said, someone who was closer may have been zoned out of that and focused on something else.

What would be really strange, I think, would be for Junior to instantly get angry and claim a racist comment was made, if it had not been said. Could he just be making it up for attention? And would Mbappe really just be making it up afterwards just to back up his mate? Even more unlikely, because he could have just been more generic in his interview, like TAA. TAA didn't hear it, but he was easily able to stick up for Junior without getting specific. Mbappe gave detail of what happened.
 
I’m not convinced it is damaging to Benfica, if their players state they didn’t hear anything and Mbappe is lying then them backing their man is smart money. They can call out Mbappe stating he was wrong and has lied and backing their players shows solidarity and will appeal to their fan base

@Arthur Wedge makes a very good point. What Mbappe said is strange and could be seen as just backing his team mate as others were just as close by and hadn’t reacted at all. As the man says it’s not clear cut , looks suspicious and ultimately I thinks regardless of my personal opinions on how disgusting racism is this one has a long way to go and can’t be proven either way.
The concern I have in this, generally, is that when stuff like this happens, we can often spend more time in trying to find reasons why the alleged victim is actually lying, or why other witnesses will be lying. If a team mate automatically becomes an unreliable witness, then I guess the problem of racism will never be solved. The team mates of the alleged guilty person are not going to say the guy was guilty, otherwise that makes their working life within that club very very uncomfortable. Anybody could say what they want, as long as no microphone can pick it up or it can't be lip read. When I heard Mourinho's response, on one hand I could understand what he was saying from his point of view, whilst also defending his player and club when nothing can be proven. On the otherhand, I can see what he said as being horrifying. He was in a lose lose situation I think

There is more talk about why Junior and Mbappe might be lying, or why it was Junior's fault for sparking everything off in the first place. And very little about the fact that there could be a very high probability that the Benfica player did say something that was hugely offensive. That is worrying from my point of view, yet I've no idea what racist abuse feels like. So I can see why it is horrifying and tiring when the likes of Henry see this happen, as they have first hand experience.

I also wonder what would happen if the exact same incident happened to a different player, such as TAA or another black player one might admire (possibly one from the club you support). Would the reaction be any different if it hadn't happened to a player who many of us so openly dislike?

It is a messy situation. But I suppose if it was simplistic, then racism would be a simple thing to deal with, and that is clearly not the case.
 
Personally unless heard by an official or camera mic I don’t think there is anything the authorities can do.

It would need the player to confess he said it or a teammate to say he did.
, I can’t see either happening.

Jose has been around long enough to have worded his interview better but I don’t think you can blame him for what happened and think his response was not particularly well thought out but no intent behind it.
The 2nd leg could be spicy
 
Personally unless heard by an official or camera mic I don’t think there is anything the authorities can do.

It would need the player to confess he said it or a teammate to say he did.
, I can’t see either happening.

Jose has been around long enough to have worded his interview better but I don’t think you can blame him for what happened and think his response was not particularly well thought out but no intent behind it.
The 2nd leg could be spicy
Caveat, the below if from Google AI, presumably it has picked it up from the UEFA disciplinary website:

Yes, UEFA can investigate and charge a player for racism even if there is no clear video or audio evidence, provided there is enough circumstantial evidence or witness testimony to satisfy their disciplinary bodies. UEFA employs a "zero-tolerance" policy regarding racism, with Article 14 of their disciplinary regulations allowing for sanctions based on "any type of evidence".

I suppose it ends up being subject to whoever is judging the case. The video footage itself will be a big part of the circumstantial evidence, and the liklihood that the Benfica player intended to offend Junior, and the liklihood Junior would react as he did.

Note, if found guilty, Article 14 apparently requires a suspension of at least 10 games.
 
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