They have sinbins for dissent in non-league and I’ve seen it work well.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I wish I could say it was the latter.If they aren't bothering to use it then I'd say a/ that's a mistake and b/ it was a failure. Unless of course there is no longer any dissent, abuse towards refs etc. at which point it was a roaring success
Actually one of our players got sent off for dissent, second yellow - it was a £45 fine! Now that's a deterrent.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I originally liked the idea of sin bins. But then I did get the argument that if one player is taken off pitch, you'd have 10 minutes of a team just playing ultra defensive.
Plus, less of a penalty for players dissent in last few minutes of game I guess
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
If refs had been stronger with challenges that come under the banner of “ he took one for the team” and dished out yellows we would not been needing another coloured card. If you are on a yellow you have to “ reel it in”. Allowing players to have 2 or three borderline line fouls before you get a yellow, or “your on your last chance” has not helped. Gobbling off at a ref and getting away with it has not helped. How is giving them another card to dish out going to help. Respect for referees, I totally get it but at times they have not helped themselves and neither has VAR, which again is supposed to help referees.
I would like to see one or two cards dished out to referees.
I would like to see one or two cards dished out to referees.
Swango1980
Well-known member
The main issue you pretty much landed on, the word borderline. And challenge that is borderline, is by definition subjective. So sometimes the decision will go one way, other times the other way. Even for an individual ref, if a foul I borderline, other factors could come into play thar pushes him one way or another at any given point. So, it doesn't matter how many other coloured cards are thrown into the game, there will still be borderline calls for each. Referees will just have more borderline decisions to make, because they've more different cards to choose from.
Sometimes I wonder, is there really a big problem? I don't see players punching other players or referees, and if they did they'd get a huge punishment. I do see players get angry and frustrated with decisions. But, so they should, just like we do. It is why the game is hugely popular, passion. I don't want players to become emotionless characters on the pitch. Let them vent a bit to referee, and let the referee do his job at engaging with players. I don't see players chasing after referees like they used to, and when that level of aggression occurs instant yellow. And if they start calling referees cheats or give them back chat without calming down, book 'em.
It seems we are moving to point where players won't be allowed to talk to officials at all, unless spoken to. I'm not sure that type of authority improves respect at all, quite the opposite.
If players spoke to officials in a controlled manner, as per cricket, rugby, hockey etc then we would not be where we are today. Now I agree with Tashy in that officials have allowed this to happen by not enforcing the rules that are in existence but I have zero sympathy with players on this. Respect is found in other sports, football needs to catch up. The obvious answer is that only the captain can speak to the ref, even then the captain has to do it with respect. It really is not hard, football needs to grow up.
Swango1980
Well-known member
We've been saying stuff like this for years. It all sounds so simple. Yet, here we are. I suspect things are a lot better than they were 10-20 years ago in some respects, yet we are still moaning about footballers not acting with great respect towards officials.
I've said before, as soon as a referee makes a controversial, albeit somewhat subjective decision, then you have many people in this forum absolutely slating the official. We've heard Liverpool fans (and manager) talk about how Paul Tierney is somehow biased against their club. We've heard people slam Anthony Taylor as not being fit to be a referee (is he our best referee?). This goes on for pages and pages, week after week. And that is in a forum full of golfers (who mostly have a bit of etiquette) that has many guidelines as to what can be said. Just imagine what it is like in a forum with no guidelines, or down the pub or in the family home. If those conversations were recorded, "normal" people could be charged with hate speech.
And yet, when a player who is in a highly competitive environment with tens of thousands screaming fans around them has a decision go against them, then we somehow think it is OK for us to scream anything we like, but they somehow have to behave like a chess player? All of these footballers are young and immature, many teenagers. They'll make mistakes, and many will have been around screaming parents, family and friends all their life. They've probably grown up to see the referee as the enemy. Someone they think has too much authority at times. That age old "he hasn't played the game" that many of us churn out, as if that is a good reason to diminish their decisions.
Clearly, it really is that hard for football to grow up, because none of us fans seem to be able to grow up. Football fans are a different breed to cricket, hockey and rugby fans. Probably because those sports tend to be played in private / grammar schools, and many of the players / fans tend to be of that sort of background. Football is vastly more popular, and played by people from all backgrounds and from all nationalities. You are going to have many people get into and support football from backgrounds where people are generally a lot more crude in expressing their opinions, and many of the footballers themselves will also be from that sort of background.
I think things like VAR, and booking players for pretty much questioning a decision, was meant to improve respect towards officials. I think both have probably done the opposite. I think the respect fans give referees is maybe at an all time low. So, how can we get to a point were none of us would criticize the ability of a referee, even if they made a decision we didn't agree with? I'm not sure, but I think having referees with strong characters who can communicate with players with all sorts of personalities would be a big tick. I think referees that are somehow able to engage with fans somehow. Maybe not interviews after games, that could back fire. Maybe a discussion a few days after a game. I think hearing them speak on the pitch would be a great help, where fans can actually understand why the decision has been given. I don't watch a lot of rugby, but it feels really positive hearing the officials speak to players, and being able to fully explain why they've come to a decision, even if it is borderline. If football fans had this, perhaps they may actually start liking some referees? And if there is public love for a referee, then I think that is only likely to improve the behavior of players around the same referee. Maybe that is idealistic, maybe there are too many fans that will simply never respect authority, and therefore there will be many footballers who will be the same.
@Swango1980 why do you assume that people on here disagreeing with a ref are screaming at them, are in their faces on the tv screen? It is very possible to disagree with a decision and not be in someone's face or losing the plot. You are making excuses for players when there aren't any. We have to stop using passion or background as an excuse, there isn't one.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
I think VAR has actually made it worse for refs.
It has shown that they just back each other up even when they know they are wrong!
Then just apologise to clubs.
In the past they made mistakes but it was forgotten about in a few days.
Now VAR has highlighted just how poor some of them are.
It also shows them in a good light but they are rare.
Players attitudes come from being lauded from very early ages and nobody says “no” to them anymore.
Refs have caused a lot of their own problems imo., what other job would let people abuse you to your face ,even when on TV , they have the rules / powers to deal with this but choose not to most of the time.
It has shown that they just back each other up even when they know they are wrong!
Then just apologise to clubs.
In the past they made mistakes but it was forgotten about in a few days.
Now VAR has highlighted just how poor some of them are.
It also shows them in a good light but they are rare.
Players attitudes come from being lauded from very early ages and nobody says “no” to them anymore.
Refs have caused a lot of their own problems imo., what other job would let people abuse you to your face ,even when on TV , they have the rules / powers to deal with this but choose not to most of the time.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
I don’t think anyone would be surprised if it was City trying to stop these rules going ahead - always does seem strange that the state are allowed to sponser themselves and no doubt it’s inflated
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
Surely Newcastle would be trying the same?
To be fair, even our owners are at it - Adidas confirmed as our next kit maker and our owner is the majority shareholder there too
@Swango1980
Personally, I don’t think anything will be achieved without a lot of pain. Can you imagine the absolute uproar in the game if a more dogmatic approach was adopted for next season? If a Nigel Owen, rugby, approach was adopted things still wouldn’t change - he’d get mobbed, shouted down and they’d be chest to chest.
My approach, and that doesn’t mean I’m right, would see refs running seminars at the clubs in pre-season, explaining exactly what is and what isn’t acceptable. It would include what the penalties would be for transgressions, and I would add that every televised match, irrespective of which league, would have the footage reviewed with retrospective action taken against any transgression missed during the match. And as has been suggested, only the captains can approach the ref.
As for mistakes refs might make, accept it happens, get over it and get on with winning the match.
Apart from golf, I played amateur footie, like most of us, till my mid/late 20’s but I played rugby pretty much every Saturday till my mid 30’s. If the ref says offside, it’s offside and no amount of bleating and wailing is going to change his mind. Respect him for him stepping onto the pitch, sometimes in a difficult atmosphere, and just get on with the game.
Personally, I don’t think anything will be achieved without a lot of pain. Can you imagine the absolute uproar in the game if a more dogmatic approach was adopted for next season? If a Nigel Owen, rugby, approach was adopted things still wouldn’t change - he’d get mobbed, shouted down and they’d be chest to chest.
My approach, and that doesn’t mean I’m right, would see refs running seminars at the clubs in pre-season, explaining exactly what is and what isn’t acceptable. It would include what the penalties would be for transgressions, and I would add that every televised match, irrespective of which league, would have the footage reviewed with retrospective action taken against any transgression missed during the match. And as has been suggested, only the captains can approach the ref.
As for mistakes refs might make, accept it happens, get over it and get on with winning the match.
Apart from golf, I played amateur footie, like most of us, till my mid/late 20’s but I played rugby pretty much every Saturday till my mid 30’s. If the ref says offside, it’s offside and no amount of bleating and wailing is going to change his mind. Respect him for him stepping onto the pitch, sometimes in a difficult atmosphere, and just get on with the game.
Robster59
Tour Rookie
As a Rugby (League) fan, I have always been baffled as to why football hasn't adopted the same standards of respect that both codes of Rugby use. If a player argues with a ref, a 10 yard penalty. If he gives abuse, sin bin. Absolutely no arguing with the ref and he is called Sir. If 6 foot plus players can do this in a physical, highly charged game, then why can't footballers.
It's like kids and dogs. They will push the limits of what they can do. If you set down the limits, and they exceed them, then they have to be disciplined.
It's like kids and dogs. They will push the limits of what they can do. If you set down the limits, and they exceed them, then they have to be disciplined.
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
I'm with you here.. one month of being strict in every game and throwing around reds to anyone who contests/ screams and shouts/ cries and all of a sudden the respect will increase tenfold.
GB72
Money List Winner
Yes but then the talk shows and pundits will be up in arms about refs ruining the game. Sadly there has become a whole media industry built on a foundation of criticising referees and encouraging their listeners to rant over the airwaves about them, interviewers and pundits goading managers and players into blaming the ref etc. In such an atmosphere it is hardly surprising that players feel vindicated in surrounding the ref.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
The ten yard movement of the free kick was trialled in football ages ago, but it didn't work because moving it ten yards forward doesn't really provide any advantage most of the time. Only if you go from 35 to 25 yards, then it brings an opportunity to shoot at goal. But at all other times it is useless, can even be detrimental if it narrows the angle from a wide area for example - or if it brings the free kick to the very edge of the area where it's more difficult to get the ball over the wall and back down. Or if it's deep in your own half the 10 yards makes next to no difference.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
We have seen various “clampdowns” on abuse and dissent over the years
At first their is a spate of cards shown for dissent and waving imaginary cards etc and it’s in all the headlines
But then they stop , there is no consistency, the players just carry on.
It’s hard for the refs because the game doesn’t have the stop start periods that other sports
But right now the players etc don’t have any respect for the referees because they are right now struggling to be consistent and being backed by a system that’s just as a poor
Officials in other sports don’t seems to be as poor as football refs when it comes to be consistent
Norrin Radd
Tour Winner
It wouldn't be the referees ruining the game,it would be the players acting like a bunch of Karens. They will have been told the laws and the ref would be applying it .who's fault is it .
GB72
Money List Winner
That is true but the position is that you have a whole section of the media based around pundits, mainly ex players, criticising the referee and encouraging their audience and and social media followers to do likewise. They whip them up in to a frenzy of outrage then acted shocked when that they results in the abuse of refs and threats as well as an atmosphere in which players believe they are above the arbiter of the laws on the pitch.
