Texas Scramble Allowances

[wjemather]

Ah, so you want research from me, but one anecdote to the contrary is conclusive? Bravo.

No, I never said it was conclusive ("sounds like" is not a definitive statement). And anyone's research will be fine - doesn't have to be your own.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Do you know this, or can you only confirm this for your club/local area?

How do your club send the results to EG then ? The ISVs only sent results of singles competition do they not - so what method did you use to send the results in ?

 

[rulefan]

Can you confirm how they have come to those HC allowances in a texas scramble when clubs have never sent any Texas scramble results into the governing bodies ?

We know that Scottish Golf in particular has collected much data in the past from clubs. I don't know what they have re scrambles. It is known that the USGA have massive amounts of data from clubs and university/colleges where everything is collected and stored, probably even including the brand of shirts they were wearing. Further Golf Australia has a penchant for collecting and analysing data. eg they were behind the 93% (now 95%).
But why would they take 7 years producing a system when it results in a finger in the air?

 

[wjemather]

Can you confirm how they have come to those HC allowances in a texas scramble when clubs have never sent any Texas scramble results into the governing bodies ?

How do your club send the results to EG then ? The ISVs only sent results of singles competition do they not - so what method did you use to send the results in ?

Can we take it that you don't actually know this then?

For what it's worth, we hold one scramble a year on an unmeasured course; as such, the results wouldn't be any use to them.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We know that Scottish Golf in particular has collected much data in the past from clubs. I don't know what they have re scrambles. It is known that the USGA have massive amounts of data from clubs and university/colleges where everything is collected and stored, probably even including the brand of shirts they were wearing. Further Golf Australia has a penchant for collecting and analysing data. eg they were behind the 93% (now 95%).
But why would they take 7 years producing a system when it results in a finger in the air?

Yet EG have not taken anything from scrambles

Scrambles have historically been done manually until recent years - just like with 4BBB etc they use scores from results sent through from singles comps and yes EG confirmed that

Can we take it that you don't actually know this then?

For what it's worth, we hold one scramble a year on an unmeasured course; as such, the results wouldn't be any use to them.

So your club haven’t sent anything , just likes ours havent and many others - and yes have that confirmed by someone with England Golf when I asked the question

They have never been interested in scrambles because it’s never been recognised format - no idea why they decided to jump in this time but it wouldn’t surprise me if clubs do use their own historical formats to host the scramble

We had one that was one by a group who were 18 under par before the comp was even started because of the HC allowance change.

 

[jim8flog]

I can say from experience of running several Texas Scrambles where I play that the method of giving shots needed changing in some way.

My experience was definite 10% of combined favoured low handicappers particularly those teams with a big hitter in the team.

Simple maths and probability really
Team of four 5 handicappers 4x5=20 10% = 2 shots they are are probably looking at birdies or better on every hole 54 - 2 = 52
Team of four 20 handicappers 4x20=80 10%= 8 shots they are probably looking at parring or slightly better on every hole say 68 - 8 = 60

 

[wjemather]

Yet EG have not taken anything from scrambles

Scrambles have historically been done manually until recent years - just like with 4BBB etc they use scores from results sent through from singles comps and yes EG confirmed that




So your club haven’t sent anything , just likes ours havent and many others - and yes have that confirmed by someone with England Golf when I asked the question

They have never been interested in scrambles because it’s never been recognised format - no idea why they decided to jump in this time but it wouldn’t surprise me if clubs do use their own historical formats to host the scramble

We had one that was one by a group who were 18 under par before the comp was even started because of the HC allowance change.

(I assume) EG cannot speak for the rest of the world, especially those jurisdictions that have been more actively involved in developing WHS.

It has always been recommended that teams in scrambles should have a similar composition of handicaps, i.e. extremes of all-highs or all-lows are to be avoided.

 

[rulefan]

Yet EG have not taken anything from scrambles

Scrambles have historically been done manually until recent years - just like with 4BBB etc they use scores from results sent through from singles comps and yes EG confirmed that
So your club haven’t sent anything , just likes ours havent and many others - and yes have that confirmed by someone with England Golf when I asked the question
They have never been interested in scrambles because it’s never been recognised format - no idea why they decided to jump in this time but it wouldn’t surprise me if clubs do use their own historical formats to host the scramble

England Golf was not actually part of the WHS organisation. It was represented by CONGU. EG did not have that data and I have never suggested otherwise.
You may have been better off asking the USGA and the R&A.
However, I can confirm that the WHS team has its own highly qualified research team that did lots of number crunching from scores already within various handicap systems around the world.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

England Golf was not actually part of the WHS organisation. It was represented by CONGU. EG did not have that data and I have never suggested otherwise.
You may have been better off asking the USGA and the R&A.
However, I can confirm that the WHS team has its own highly qualified research team that did lots of number crunching from scores already within various handicap systems around the world.

You do know it is possible for things to be wrong - Maybe it’s another case of people making judgments from incorrect research or people doing the research not playing the game but either way the HC allowance for texas scramble wasn’t from going through clubs Texas scramble results - it was from looking at years of results from singles competitions .

Clubs will do whatever they want with Texas Scrambles at the end of the day - not really a recognised format

 

[rulefan]

but either way the HC allowance for texas scramble wasn’t from going through clubs Texas scramble results - it was from looking at years of results from singles competitions .

I'm afraid that is wrong according to my well placed sources but where did you get your information from?

 

[rulefan]

I'm afraid that is wrong according to my well placed sources but where did you get your information from?

Incidentally, the WHS technical dept. has access to many eminent mathematicians who do play golf.

 

[chrisd]

Well, whoever came up with the new formula gets my vote, when we played ours under the new system the teams in the top 5 or 6 places were a fair mix of low medium and other handicaps whereas the teams with 4 players all 5 h/c or less would always win previously ??

 

[jim8flog]

Clubs will do whatever they want with Texas Scrambles at the end of the day - not really a recognised format

Somewhere within the CONGU rule book it says (or used to say) Clubs using CONGU Handicaps (and I therefore assume EG etc WHS) as a basis for a competition must abide by the allowances set by CONGU.

 

[rulefan]

Somewhere within the CONGU rule book it says (or used to say) Clubs using CONGU Handicaps (and I therefore assume EG etc WHS) as a basis for a competition must abide by the allowances set by CONGU.

It did and that has been confirmed to be still the case.
In fact I think Colin has posted something to that effect previously. I have had a message to say that CONGU will be publishing a statement shortly.

How much difference that will make to clubs' approach to scramble I don't know.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm afraid that is wrong according to my well placed sources but where did you get your information from?

From a well placed source as well -confirmed to me that they don’t get any scores from texas scramble and they have used algorithms to work out the scramble allowances to try and make it “level”

Somewhere within the CONGU rule book it says (or used to say) Clubs using CONGU Handicaps (and I therefore assume EG etc WHS) as a basis for a competition must abide by the allowances set by CONGU.

How will Congu know what allowances clubs use in a scramble?

 

[wjemather]

How will Congu know what allowances clubs use in a scramble?

As with any local divergence from mandatory allowances... presumably when disgruntled higher-handicappers, fed up with being screwed over, seek assistance from their county/national union.

 

[jim8flog]

How will Congu know what allowances clubs use in a scramble?

They will not, but like many a thing I bet a lot of clubs are not CONGU compliant (judging by some of the posts on here).

 

[Colin L]

It did and that has been confirmed to be still the case.
In fact I think Colin has posted something to that effect previously. I have had a message to say that CONGU will be publishing a statement shortly.

How much difference that will make to clubs' approach to scramble I don't know.

"The National Associations within CONGU® have determined that allowances set out in the table in Appendix C are mandatory."
GC (Appendix C) Handicap Allowances, Guidance On The WHS Rules Of Handicapping As Applied Within Gb&I. CONGU, page 21

 

[mikejohnchapman]

We don't play many scrambles (Texas, Florida, ....etc.) mainly because they are so slow. However, we have played 2 since lockdown finished (including the Christmas Comp last week) and both were won by groups containing higher handicappers.

Before I get thrashed for it being hearsay and not based on scientific research - I know, it was just a comment in a forum.

 

[rulefan]

From a well placed source as well -confirmed to me that they don’t get any scores from texas scramble and they have used algorithms to work out the scramble allowances to try and make it “level”

Presumably England Golf. They were not directly involved. WHS did have tons of data.
Quote "Lots of number crunching from scores already within the handicap systems".