Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
I have completely lost the plot over what you are arguing/discussing now.
Are you trying to assert that the mass of the golfer is a contributing factor to distance, assuming all other things are equal?
Swing smoother, hit further!
- Thread starter delc
- Start date
I have completely lost the plot over what you are arguing/discussing now.
Are you trying to assert that the mass of the golfer is a contributing factor to distance, assuming all other things are equal?
What argument?
I have not posted anything that is wrong!
Please argue with someone else
thank you
I have not posted anything that is wrong!
Please argue with someone else
thank you
bobmac
Major Champion
njrose51
Challenge Tour Pro
(1) I understand the concept that Delc was first talking about - smoother and slower is enabling a better impact and he may well be increasing club head speed without knowing it.
(2) I understand about a small golfer v a big golfer swinging same speed and power = same distance
But let me throw into the debate Joe Miller, the former Long Drive champion. yes, I know he is not a common golfer or a professional tour player, but he is immensely strong and once swung at over 200mph. So there is the argument that swinging fast and having the strength to smash the ball hard - coupled of course with the correct technique - can send the ball a huge distance.
(2) I understand about a small golfer v a big golfer swinging same speed and power = same distance
But let me throw into the debate Joe Miller, the former Long Drive champion. yes, I know he is not a common golfer or a professional tour player, but he is immensely strong and once swung at over 200mph. So there is the argument that swinging fast and having the strength to smash the ball hard - coupled of course with the correct technique - can send the ball a huge distance.
MendieGK
Tour Winner
he did not swing it at over 200mph, his ball speed might have been but not swing speed.
This agrees with some of the points made though in that, being stronger/bigger is beneficial to speed of swing if you use the muscles/size you have to proper effect.
And also, going back to the original post, i would also argue that relative to his size, Joe has a smooth takeaway meaning he can load the correct muscles and then hit the shot as hard as he wants.
One Planer
Global Moderator
I would argue that flexibility would play a bigger role than muscle mass.
Look at most tour pros. Hardly beef cakes.
.... But that's another argument :smirk:
Look at most tour pros. Hardly beef cakes.
.... But that's another argument :smirk:
Seems to be about 8 threads within a single thread, not even sure i know what it about now
I seem to have lost length as I get older, mainly I think due to my body being less flexible. I have some old videos of my swing taken 25 years ago showing that my backswing was much longer then than it is now. The only advantages of being strong and flexible are that you can develop more club head speed and impart more speed to the ball. However for maximum transfer of energy the club face has to be square to the target line at the point of impact and the ball must be struck off the centre of the club face.
TonyN
Money List Winner
I think the key thing here, is not about swinging slower, but swinging more relaxed. Bob posted a while back and I think the general message was, to swing at 90%. Ultimately, we still swing at the same speed, we just seem more relaxed, so our muscles are relaxed and they move faster.
When we try to swing faster, we tense up and probably swing slower. When we feel like we swing slower, our muscles are relaxed and we probably swing it just as fast.
I used to watch the Videojug tutorials when I first started playing,This one pretty much covers why its better to stay relaxed
[video=youtube;5PZP2u2tegE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PZP2u2tegE[/video]
When we try to swing faster, we tense up and probably swing slower. When we feel like we swing slower, our muscles are relaxed and we probably swing it just as fast.
I used to watch the Videojug tutorials when I first started playing,This one pretty much covers why its better to stay relaxed
[video=youtube;5PZP2u2tegE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PZP2u2tegE[/video]
Foxholer
Blackballed
I agree with almost everything you say (btw. Joe swings at a bit over 150mph - Ballspeed has been measured at 225).
However, the 'load the correct muscles' concept is a misconception that needs to be corrected. Muscles don't 'load' - they work by contracting! It's 'the swing' that gets loaded!
Then again, there are a number of Russian cheating 'athletes' who have been 'loading' muscles!
MendieGK
Tour Winner
I agree with almost everything you say (btw. Joe swings at a bit over 150mph - Ballspeed has been measured at 225).
However, the 'load the correct muscles' concept is a misconception that needs to be corrected. Muscles don't 'load' - they work by contracting! It's 'the swing' that gets loaded!
Then again, there are a number of Russian cheating 'athletes' who have been 'loading' muscles!
What I meant by that isn't really the load in actual terms it was in reference to a previous post which said 'pointless being big if you don't use the muscles correctly'
Foxholer
Blackballed
Yeah! No problem with that - the 'load muscles' misconception is just one of my 'hobby-horses'!
Joe is an excellent example of someone optimising his physical attributes - though for a specific purpose, so perhaps to the detriment of other aspects of his Golf (understandably deemed less important!!). He is a huge guy whose exercise regime is absolutely focused on muscle speed to maximize clubhead speed! Jamie Sadlowski is a completely different shape, but has the same ultimate purpose - to maximize clubhead speed. I'm sure Jamie's exercise regime will have a different focus to Joe's as it's JS's flexibility that achieves the speed - for him! Getting very large biceps/triceps would actually be detrimental for JS!
bobmac
Major Champion
Then again, there are a number of Russian cheating 'athletes' who have been 'loading' muscles!
Foxholer
Blackballed
I can remember watching Irina and Tamar Press perform!
Seems to have evolved into how to swing fast now.. 2 more pages and I will rejoin just as soon as I am sure no one is going to start with Physics equations again
drdel
Tour Rookie
Good grief SR you don't think you can get away with a science/physics based argument: you'll soon be expecting a thread to converge on the truth and where on earth would the keyboard warriors get their kicks then?
drdel
Tour Rookie
For those who doubt that the stature of the golfer doesn’t matter in hitting the golf ball.
It’s all down to physics and how energy is transferred to the ball. The kinetic energy comes from movement and the potential energy of how ‘hard’ the force is applied – momentum if you like.
For a given club-head speed the momentum behind the hit comes from all the moving mass behind the club. That mass includes the golfer and the club.
If this didn’t matter then you would have small guys who could generate the same speed at the head of an axe working as lumberjacks. Obviously a bigger guy with stronger arms and torso generating the same axe-head speed applies more energy to the cutting edge. The bidder momentum he achieves stops his body and the axe being slowed at the moment of impact.
This is why a ‘smooth’ swing where the golf club is still accelerating through the point of impact will achieve a greater energy transfer than a decelerating club travelling at the same impact speed.
Even if you don’t want to accept the science then ask yourself why the likes of Day, Johnson etc. are large guys working on their upper body strength.
I ain’t seen a ‘small’ guy win the Long Drive competitions.
It’s all down to physics and how energy is transferred to the ball. The kinetic energy comes from movement and the potential energy of how ‘hard’ the force is applied – momentum if you like.
For a given club-head speed the momentum behind the hit comes from all the moving mass behind the club. That mass includes the golfer and the club.
If this didn’t matter then you would have small guys who could generate the same speed at the head of an axe working as lumberjacks. Obviously a bigger guy with stronger arms and torso generating the same axe-head speed applies more energy to the cutting edge. The bidder momentum he achieves stops his body and the axe being slowed at the moment of impact.
This is why a ‘smooth’ swing where the golf club is still accelerating through the point of impact will achieve a greater energy transfer than a decelerating club travelling at the same impact speed.
Even if you don’t want to accept the science then ask yourself why the likes of Day, Johnson etc. are large guys working on their upper body strength.
I ain’t seen a ‘small’ guy win the Long Drive competitions.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Bit of an issue when the 'science' quoted is nothing to do with the actual 'problem and solution' though!
Most of the above is twaddle! Club-head speed is everything! What the build of the golfer is has little/no bearing on it - except to indicate which 'style' of training that particular golfer should use to increase their speed!
Check out Rod White's findings in the Tutelman stuff in the reference I posted earlier!
And compare the Long Drivers Jamie Sadlowski and Joe Miller!
Bubba Watson is actually a pretty weedy guy - at least compared to the likes of John Daly, JB Holmes and Kiradech Aphibarnrat, yet he's way above them in the Driving Distance stats! Darren Clark and Lee Westwood both GAINED distance when they lost weight (Mass being an important part of momentum)!
If body mass - as opposed to club-head speed - really had an effect on distance, then the Smash Factor calculation (Max Ball-Speed = 1.5 * Club-head speed) would have to also factor in Mass of swinger! As it clearly doesn't, then body mass is NOT a factor!
'Accelerating through impact' has almost no (actually, it's roughly half a percent) benefit to the actual strike - though it's almost certainly a great thought to maximise the impact speed! Again see Tutelman's comparison!
However, physical attributes do contribute to the ability to generate club-head speed! Being relatively tall helps and being physically strong - in the right way - also helps. For those trying to maximise their distance, optimising their physical characteristics can help! But (Long Driver) Jamie Sadlowski's distance would almost certainly decrease if he added body mass - which is why he hasn't!
The above is absolute twaddle!!
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
What a surprise, Mr Foxy insulting peoples point of view. Surely that's not a first. Twaddle 
The golf ball only respects the force applied to it at impact, it cares nothing about how fast a clubhead is swinging. Mr Newton found out that Force = Mass x Acceleration but seems like that's twaddle. If the golf club was a piece of string with a clubhead on the end then indeed the only way to increase force would be to swing it faster but the clubhead is on the end of a shaft and it's possible to apply pressure to the shaft from the mass of your hands, arms and body, just the same as it is by swinging the club faster. Watch Tour pro's swing a wedge with a slow looking tempo and then take a big divot, see the tension in their arms when they are swinging through impact, they certainly aren't holding onto the grip like it's a tube of toothpaste.
Make a reasoned argument but please leave out the stupid insults.
The golf ball only respects the force applied to it at impact, it cares nothing about how fast a clubhead is swinging. Mr Newton found out that Force = Mass x Acceleration but seems like that's twaddle. If the golf club was a piece of string with a clubhead on the end then indeed the only way to increase force would be to swing it faster but the clubhead is on the end of a shaft and it's possible to apply pressure to the shaft from the mass of your hands, arms and body, just the same as it is by swinging the club faster. Watch Tour pro's swing a wedge with a slow looking tempo and then take a big divot, see the tension in their arms when they are swinging through impact, they certainly aren't holding onto the grip like it's a tube of toothpaste.
Make a reasoned argument but please leave out the stupid insults.
Foxholer
Blackballed
What a surprise, Mr Foxy insulting peoples point of view. Surely that's not a first. Twaddle
The golf ball only respects the force applied to it at impact, it cares nothing about how fast a clubhead is swinging. Mr Newton found out that Force = Mass x Acceleration but seems like that's twaddle. If the golf club was a piece of string with a clubhead on the end then indeed the only way to increase force would be to swing it faster but the clubhead is on the end of a shaft and it's possible to apply pressure to the shaft from the mass of your hands, arms and body, just the same as it is by swinging the club faster. Watch Tour pro's swing a wedge with a slow looking tempo and then take a big divot, see the tension in their arms when they are swinging through impact, they certainly aren't holding onto the grip like it's a tube of toothpaste.
Make a reasoned argument but please leave out the stupid insults.
Read this link! http://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/index.php particularly the 'Golf Swing Physics' reference in it! Rod White is rather more qualified than me on the subject - and I'm almost certain also than you! So i'll let him 'make the reasoned argument' On that matter, Tutelman (also rather well qualified to comment) states - applying Newton's 2nd Law of course! - that the effect of 'accelerating through the ball' is less than half of one percent! And still no reference to body (or shaft) mass - just the mass of the club-head!
Of course Newton's 2nd Law applies, but it's not the area of Physics that's relevant! And where did I say that was twaddle?
More appropriate areas that apply to Club-head/ball collision are that of (conservation of) Kinetic Energy (of the Club-head only before collision) and (conservation of) Momentum. The link uses that! Try reading it!
There is a small consideration wrt arm mass, but that is pretty insignificant if talking about the effect of the overall body on energy transmitted to the ball!
As an aside, to backup my 'Club-head speed is everything' assertion...Can you explain why this facility http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/ doesn't consider Mass of shaft or Golfer - only Club-Head speed - yet comes up with pretty perfect numbers? Likewise...Does Trackman consider anything Mass or Force related?
No! The only thing that matters is Club-Head speed!
Anyway, this has all got rather off the topic of the thread - though certainly relevant to the Golf Swing! I suggest that if you want to continue this discussion, you create a new thread!
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