Swing Changes

Imurg

The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
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I do not know much about the Golf Swing. When I swing a club I'm not thinking about whether this part of my arm, leg or body is position A, B or (God forbid!) C. I just do it. I have few if any swing thoughts - it just happens. I get reasonable results (and obviously some not so reasonable too!), I've been as low as 8.1 and would almost certainly have gone lower had injuries and parenthood not got in the way. I have achieved this on the back of 1 free 30 minute lesson (that lasted all of 10!) when I first joined a club in 1993. I had spent an entire winter on the range trying to get "good enough" to join a club - what I didn't know was that I had progressed so far that my first handicap was 15. The Pro said my only problem was a tilt in my shoulders causing an upright swingplane and therefore a slice - keep the shoulders level and there you are.

Since returning to competitive golf my revised handicap of 13 has come down to 9.6 steadily. There is no reason to assume that it is not going to continue to fall, I am playing well now my driving is sorted and beating SSS of 69 on my course has become a regular occurrance. One factor not influencing my improvement is swing changes. There may have been changes to the way I swing the club but they have not been actively sought or consciously done. Why do so many people actively try to change their golf swing? In last months mag, the Psycologist Guy says that to improve you must change your swing - says who? I know Faldo did it as have loads of others but these guys are Professionals, they do it for a living, they have down-time between events to work for 8 hours a day on position B and not A. Unless we have that sort of time, money and dedication any changes that are made will initially cause much grief as scores race skywards, followed by a period where you think you've cracked it. Following a short break - weather, injury or holiday induced - you will revert to parts of the old swing that has served you well(ish) for the past X years until you re-learn your swing changes. Scores rocket again and by then you've got so much going on onside your head that you barely know which hole you're on.

And your handicap either stays similar or goes up - enducing more changes to your swing and the cycle continues once more.

That's not to say swing changes don't work. Obviously they do for some. But you've either got to have the time, patience and determinaton to do it or be naturally talented.

I won't be changing my swing anytime soon - it works for me and I think I'll continue to improve, playing once or twice a week and maybe off to the range occasionally. My swing is what I've been given, I don't feel changing it is going to make me better.
 
Ok, and I feel (maybe wrongly) this is kinda directed (or at least generated by some of my posts) at me. I know my game. I have played off 12 for 15 years minimum. Bit of a plateau. I know where my game fails under pressure, and regardless of how well I can play, the guys I play with on here only see me when I am having a laugh. I can shoot 1 over for 9 on any sensible course I play. However, bung a card in my hand, and I have a tendancy to get a bit over the top, and this leads to the odd disaster. Small tweaks are not going to solve this, as you are right, under duress, I will resort to type.
If, and it is a big if, I make major changes, ironically, they will be easier to bed in. A small tweak is easily forgotten, a big change, less so.
If I am to progress further, I feel my current swing has taken me as far as it is going to go.
I have addressed the mental thing this year, and after 20 years feel I have finally got my head around medal play. I can now par in, having dropped 8 shots on the front 9, and expect to do so. My issue is the 3 odd shots I squander needlessly from a rubbish swing on the front 9.

I firmly believe that swing changes are needed for me to solidify a single digit handicap. My short game is solid, and I putt well. All that is left is eliminating the lost balls, and the chip out sideways. A radical swing change could take me to the next level, and if all els fails, I will be no worse off as my short game and putting will still bail me out.

No, we aren't pro's, but sometimes, we need to make changes, or accept that this is it, 12 handicap for life.
 
You were definitely in my thoughts when I composed this but you're by no means the only one! In your case, as you say, you've been steady for 20 years so a change maybe the only course to keep that single figure handicap - well done by the way, you beat me to it as well!

The thread's really aimed at those who are steadily or even slowly dropping handicap and think a dramatic swing change will make it happen faster.

And, maybe, for some a 12 is as good as its ever going to get - doesn't stop you trying though.......
 
I'm getting the feeling I fall into the bracket being referred to here. I go along with Murph though. In my case there are a number of serious swing flaws which makes my game at best inconsistant. However in order to make it better (i.e repeatable and reliable) I need to address each problem in a structured order. I've been working on tempo as my swing was too fast, making it too long and as a result forcing my head to move laterally on the backswing. Fix the tempo and shorten the swing. Not as easy as it sounds and those who've tried the tour tempo cd I've been going on about on here will tell you that it is a lot harder to do in practice.

I'm nearly there and so my pro and I can move onto my biggest bete noir which is a loss of spine angle and lifting through impact. By giving myself more time (and a better turn) we can start to work on a better rotation through impact. Ultimately less moving parts has to equal a more consistant end product

I guess the fact that I've an understanding wife who lets me go out and play and practice and that I enjoy working on my game makes it easier for me to look for something better. If I could only get out once a week then like the OP I'd be happy to accept my swing for what it is and enjoy the game and take my handicap changes up and down as they came. However I believe there is a half decent golfer in there and I want to be more competitive. Its been a common accusation on here that I probably think too much about my swing even during a game and one of the resolutions I posted in the new year resolution thread was to play more and worry less. The range is going to be for bedding a change in and the course will be my playground.
 
Guys ,
If it aint broke why try to fix it.
Fair enough professionals have to do it at times to prevent themselves from going off the boil but thats about it....
I know im off 20 but i have a fairly decent swing and like imurg i will play with what natural talent i have....I cant afford lessons nor do i want to take any...Iv never thought about my swing as technical the only thing id like is rythym which i think will come with time and practice.My own thoughts from reading books and magazine is that a player can overload his mind with too much information make a game thats complicated enough to begin with even more complicated instaed of just getting up and hitting the ball........If a swing is good enough to get you down to playing off 8 there cant be alot wrong with it. i dont think any one player has the same swing as the next and trying to mimic someone elses swing for yourself can only be disasterous on so many levels.....Maybe its other aspects of the game like course management or the short game that might benefit from a change...

I think there is a great sense of achievement and self satisfaction from conqering hurdles in the game and it gives a person a belief and inner confidence in themselves...
Now i can understand that there are some players that need lessons but there neccessary to help them get better and maybe these players dont have the same natural ability as others.
Maybe im just talking @$LL?# :D ;)
 
I have to say as a 'novice' golfer who has fluted around for a couple of years playing a few times a year. Last year when i made a consious decision to start playing the game properly, I had a series of lessons (addmitadly they were a present) and I have to say that they were a revelation. Like kid2 as a current high handicapper. I have the belief (possibly delusional) that i have the capability of achieving low hanicap.
I felt the lessons gave me a proper understanding of what i am atempting to do. And probably more importantly an understanding of what i'm doing wrong when I hit a poor shot . I personally used to find it very frustrating trying to correct a flaw by trial and error. I also found the lessons great in that the pro changed my grip (major change) and shortened my swing (minor change). These had a dramatic effect on my game which I probably would not have achieved if i did not take the lessons. I also think that i found if very helpful and confience building that the pro pointed out what i did well.
In total i've had six lessons so far:
Two on iron play
One on chipping
One on pitching
One on sand play
One on putting
And they have been the greatest help to my game by far. I definately intend to have more in the future. I'm not saying that lessons are needed every week or month for that matter but i do believe a good teaching pro helping with swing changes could see improvements to all players games faster then they can do it on there own
 
Interesting post. I don't really take lessons - 3 in the last 6 years but I have implemented small changes sucessfully I think.

You can see massive improvements by small things being corrected such as a grip change or ball position. These changes are fairly easy to make.

I had 2 problems identified by the last pro I saw, one was a weak grip and the other was a tendency to hip slide instead of hip rotation. It was end of winter and I was coming back from back trouble when I saw him which may have made the hip slide more of an issue as I wasn't moving great, not sure. Those 2 things are realtively simple fixes but you have to keep thinking about not slipping into the old bad habits. They do need to be bedded in with practice time but it can be done in only a few sessions. I don't practice like mad but will make sure I watch those 2 aspects when I do practise.

Those are changes that I have made and feel I hit the ball better now, less reliant on perfect timing which was how it was before which meant either good or awful results on the course. The main improvement for me was consistency, only going over 80 once in 30 odd comps last year and still being able to get it round when I wasn't on my A game. Previously I'd have thrown in a few 86 or 88's on bad days. Less 0.1's than usual meant a good handicap improvement last year.

Summing up I would contend that you don't need the spare time of a pro to change your swing a little bit which is sometimes all it needs, not a total overhaul.
 
I think this is an interesting debate and for my money it depends on your starting point. As you all know I have started with lessons. There are so many moving parts on a golf swing and I hope that from having that technical input from an early stage I will become a more consistent ball striker. From what I've learnt and improvement I've made in the past five months I'd say lessons are the way forward for beginners.

However, having seen my brother who has been a mid handicapper for years, follow my lead and take lessons has been a different experience. His swing is being rebuilt and his game had been utterly ruined as a consequence.

If you enjoy your golf and have n aspiration to make huge cuts you are probably best leaving well alone.
 
For me, rather than a swing change if you are a competent golfer with a middle range handicap say 18-12 the one thing that will benefit more than the hours on the range smacking drivers and swing changes is to get the ball into the hole more times with one putt. This means more short game practice, chipping and putting. If you can get your chips more often into one putt range or even gimme range then just doing it 5/6 times per round will have your handicap tumbling. How many times would 5/6 one putts have improved your score? plenty I'll bet. My long game is pretty sound putting and chipping especially need work so that's me for 2010, putting and chipping my way to a lower handicap.
 
For me, rather than a swing change if you are a competent golfer with a middle range handicap say 18-12 the one thing that will benefit more than the hours on the range smacking drivers and swing changes is to get the ball into the hole more times with one putt. This means more short game practice, chipping and putting. If you can get your chips more often into one putt range or even gimme range then just doing it 5/6 times per round will have your handicap tumbling. How many times would 5/6 one putts have improved your score? plenty I'll bet.

Can I agree, but disagree a little. Chipping and putting is essential to make a half decent score regardless of handicap. However, off my sort of h'cap, some (?) players are already close to 5/6 one putts per round anyway. I get the feeling the the O.P. might well allude to this. On a bad long-game day, I might only hit 3 greens but still play to 12 with a couple of doubles thrown in?

Hitting greens is also a saviour. It's only a feeling, but I think the frustration (to want to do serious work on the swing itself (as opposed to tweaking path and face)) comes from hitting too many costly shots, which comes from a swing that only works when it works (if you understand me).

I rarely hit crazy-wild shots but at the same time, stand me 150 yards from a green and I can miss them all day with slight pulls, small pushes, stupid pull hooks (with short irons), the list goes on. I use a half decent short game to get up n down, but it's birdies I'm really after!!!

I do agree with you though, of course.
 
Everone who plays golf is different.
Some play for fun, some more serious.
Some love practicing, some hate it.
Some have a natural talent, some cant hit a barn door with a banjo.
Some have great fundamentals but still miss the ball.
Some like having lessons, some will never have one.
It is the job or the Pro to make sure he/she recognsises who he/she is teaching and adjusts their style to suit the pupil.
For example...

Pupil 1
Pro.How can I help?
Pupil. Can you cure my slice?
Pro. How often do you practice?
Pup. Everyday
Pro Handicap ?
Pup 10
Pro Age?
Pup 16

Outcome......change swing path and clubface position at impact

Pupil 2
Pro.How can I help?
Pupil. Can you cure my slice?
Pro. How often do you practice?
Pup. Never
Pro Handicap ?
Pup 24
Pro Age?
Pup 46

Outcome......Aim right and close the face.

Most people dont change their natural swing very much over their career.
It may feel they have but in reality, it's normally a tweak here and there that helps with their fundamentals.
A slight change in swing path, a tweak with the grip and a little shimmy with the aim is all most golfers will achieve.

The short game however is a different story. :)

As long as the golfer can get the ball down the fairway and not make a fool of themselves they are normally pretty happy.
Of course the good players want more, but they are in the minority.

I feel it is a Pros job to help the golfer get the most out of the natural swing without changing everything just because it's not a textbook swing
 
As long as the golfer can get the ball down the fairway and not make a fool of themselves they are normally pretty happy.
Of course the good players want more, but they are in the minority.

This is me (the first bit).

I just go round and round in circles. I go and play and hit one shot (more or less) the whole way round. Knowing what I was doing then tells me what to practice next time. It's only when I can't find my swing *at all* that I tend to go for a lesson, so that's rarely t.b.h.

IF I had the time to practice 2 or 3 times a week, I'd go for a lesson every week....

I only ever wanted to get round without making a fool of myself, the fact that I got quite a bit better than that (albeit 14 years ago) was down to good lessons from a good pro who knew the best way to get me swinging better.

I think my swing has changed a lot over the years, but most of the important changes were made very early on.
 
I think I can get the ball around without too many problems although there are still days when 30 points feels like an achievement but I must be in the so called minority. I want to be, or at least feel competitive (the basis of my blog journey) and I want single figures as well. One I feel will follow the other but I need to get a swing that works regularly and not one that may show up if the sun is out and the wind is blowing in t he right direction. The only way to achieve that (it'll never be textbook) is to get a pro to help me.
 
Interesting reading really, and it so depends where you are looking from, handicap wise. For me, I might shoot a score many on here would be happy with, but to me, I have way too many days when my playing partners say 'good shot' when the feed back from the club says anything but. If these became 'good shots' would my h/cap come down? Probably not, but would I feel I had played better, yes. And that, sometimes is enough.
 
I think it's each to their own.

I never had any intention of changing my swing when I started playing again as the image I had in my head of my swing was ok with me.
Then I had a reality check when I saw it on video. Much like Homer I was swaying and almost standing up at impact. I suppose I'm lucky in that I'm happy with the other parts of my swing (rightly or wrongly) and am finding it relatively easy to swing with the thought of 'keep still' in my head.

With regards to the original point, although I'm not intending to go ott with swing changes, it makes no sense to me to see something so wrong and not try to put it right, providing it doesn't take up too much time and/or money.

About 5 years ago I tried to rebuild my snooker cue action, and got so obsessed with it that it made my game worse because there were so many thoughts in my head. I'm definitely not going down that road again.
In that way I agree with the op that sometimes it's just better to hit the thing and have fun.

What I discovered from the snooker thing, is that every now and then you change something and suddenly everything falls into place. You've sussed it, can't miss. Then a week later the wheels fall off and it's back to square one.
I really believe it's because what you're doing when you find 'the secret' is just giving your mind something else to focus on rather than it messing about trying to control your body movements, which adds tension.
 
Each golfer has their own reasons, I just wanted to hit the ball better and was prepared to make the changes.

People seem to think that because someone is a low h/cap that they have a good swing, this is so far from the truth it's unbelieveable, they are just good at getting the ball in the hole. My buddy (low single figures) has a swing like a bag of eels, he tells me his latest swing thought every time I see him, last week he had at least 4, I wouldn't want his swing if you paid me but he does manage to find the fairway pretty consistently, get on or near the green and either two or three shots later he's in the hole.... but he's NEVER going to be any better than that... ever.

I like to shoot low scores but it's more important to me HOW I do that, and I want to be better. To me ball striking is everything, I don't want to be shooting good scores because I managed to thin one to 10 feet and make the putt, although I do realise that golf isn't a game of perfects.

Nick Faldo went away and rebuilt his swing... what did he do? What did Tiger change? and what is Padraig currently working on? Who knows! it's not tangible, it's not something I will be able to do, I doubt there will be a brand new swing theory based on Padraigs flatter left wrist!

Stack and tilt made perfect sense to me, take a divot in FRONT of the ball!! How simple is that?

Mike Weir (Masters winner) who's probably played golf his entire life changed. People just don't do that! Aaron Baddley played conventional all his life, changed and won on Tour, these are professional golfers...entire lives built around the game, families, financial responsibilities, and they changed, and there's a further list of players doing exactly the same thing, these are people at the TOP of the game who are prepared to change.. all prepared to change to the same thing, not go away and make little tweaks like Tiger or Faldo.

I think it's a revelation. I've never struck the ball so pure or so easily than I do when I hit one now. Do I care what my mate with the 'eel swing' thinks about it? Not really. Do I care if someone fatted and thinned their way round and shot 2 or 3 over? Not really. It's MY game that's most important to me and right now I'm really enjoying it. Next thing is to put some silverware on the sideboard :)

If a swing is good enough to get you down to playing off 8 there cant be alot wrong with it.
Sorry, have to disagree with that. :p

If you want to get a h/cap of 2 or 3 but only have a swing good enough to get you to 8 then you're screwed! :)

Imurg, if you are happy with your swing and your scores then don't change, it's that simple. On any given day we can all play great, sometimes that's enough to keep us going, for me it wasn't, I wanted to have a game that makes me happy. I went out today and played a round by myself in the freezing cold... you wouldn't have gotten the smile off my face if you'd have tried. Last year you probably wouldn't have got me on the course, and definatley not by myself.
 
Nick Faldo went away and rebuilt his swing... what did he do? What did Tiger change? and what is Padraig currently working on? Who knows! it's not tangible, it's not something I will be able to do, I doubt there will be a brand new swing theory based on Padraigs flatter left wrist!

Stack and tilt made perfect sense to me, take a divot in FRONT of the ball!! How simple is that?

Mike Weir (Masters winner) who's probably played golf his entire life changed. People just don't do that! Aaron Baddley played conventional all his life, changed and won on Tour, these are professional golfers...entire lives built around the game, families, financial responsibilities, and they changed, and there's a further list of players doing exactly the same thing, these are people at the TOP of the game who are prepared to change.. all prepared to change to the same thing, not go away and make little tweaks like Tiger or Faldo.

If a swing is good enough to get you down to playing off 8 there cant be alot wrong with it.
Sorry, have to disagree with that. :p

If you want to get a h/cap of 2 or 3 but only have a h/cap good enough to get you to 8 then you're screwed! :)

I agree that a handicap of 8 does not mean a good swing.

As far as the pros mentioned above are concerned, Faldo's swing changed quite noticeably after Leadbetter. before it was willowy and had a reverse C, after it was much tighter with a lot more core involved. Baddeley and Weir are both now moving away from S and T.

If you want to see Plummer and Bennett, they appeared on this US chat show, Type Plummer in the search box and you will find it.
 
Baddeley and Weir are both now moving away from S and T.
Yeh I know.. only because Plummer and Bennett are such FREAKS!!! :D :D

Seriously though, Weir has had the best 2 seasons of his career in terms of earnings, I reckon Baddely had the same and there's countless others who are using it. Let's not forget these are tour professionals we are talking about, not hackers like you and I, or people just starting out but talented professional golfers who have played conventional all their lives and REALLY know what they are talking about when it comes to getting a ball around the course.
 
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