Submitting 2 cards from one round

Burnley Sunday 48pts on bobbly greens and a good wind on the hill - I forgot myself it's 85% so not even full handicaps.

singles or scratch in 2023 no more moaning :-)
 
Old Skier said:
High handicapers (especially those with 2 shots) as long as they hit the green or are close can come off with some good points. I’m obviously posting about the advantage of having a high handicapper in the BB sence.
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Is a low handicapper less likely to be putting for a gross 2 than a player who gets 2 strokes on a par 3 is to be putting for a gross 4? Or might it be the other way round? On my own course, a course handicap of 22 would get you 2 strokes on a par 3 which is 224 yards long; a CH of 26 would get you 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 188 yards long; a CH of 31 would get you 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 213 yards long; you need a CH of 35 to get 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 123 yards long; and finally, you need a CH of 33 to get 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 126 yards long. Can you see anything in the lengths of these holes and the stroke index allocation that favours the higher handicappers? The low handicapper can reach each of these greens in 1. Add in the well-place bunkers which the low handicapper can be confident of an up and down from on most occasions and in which the high handicapper is more likely to take two or three hopeless hacks and then pick up. I don't have any statistics to go by, just the awareness of the multiple reasons why high handicappers have high handicaps and a capacity to screw up on par 3s must be amongst them. "As long as they hit the green" is a rather limiting condition for the high handicapper and "or are close" is even more so when you consider these bunkers.

And if a high handicapper does get a net birdie, why is that "damage"? How did he do on that 470 yard par 4 even with 2 strokes?
 
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Colin L said:
Is a low handicapper less likely to be putting for a gross 2 than a player who gets 2 strokes on a par 3 is to be putting for a gross 4? Or might it be the other way round? On my own course, a course handicap of 22 would get you 2 strokes on a par 3 which is 224 yards long; a CH of 26 would get you 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 188 yards long; a CH of 31 would get you 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 213 yards long; you need a CH of 35 to get 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 123 yards long; and finally, you need a CH of 33 to get 2 strokes on the next par 3 which is 126 yards long. Can you see anything in the lengths of these holes and the stroke index allocation that favours the higher handicappers? The low handicapper can reach each of these greens in 1. Add in the well-place bunkers which the low handicapper can be confident of an up and down from on most occasions and in which the high handicapper is more likely to take two or three hopeless hacks and then pick up. I don't have any statistics to go by, just the awareness of the multiple reasons why high handicappers have high handicaps and a capacity to screw up on par 3s must be amongst them. "As long as they hit the green" is a rather limiting condition for the high handicapper and "or are close" is even more so when you consider these bunkers.

And if a high handicapper does get a net birdie, why is that "damage"? How did he do on that 470 yard par 4 even with 2 strokes?
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Indeed, the high handicapper can make a pigs ear of the hole. But, of course, there is no guarantee the low handicapper is going to make the green in one anyway either? I'd imagine a 200+ yard par 3 is not straight forward for most low handicappers (maybe elite professionals?). Furthermore, you suggest a low handicapper can be confident in getting up and down from well-placed bunkers on most occasions. How low of a handicap are we talking here? I'm not sure exactly what sand save stats are for various abilities of golfer, but a quick google search suggests a scratch golfer will get a sand save 42% of the time, 5 handicapper 26% and 10 handicapper 20%. So, I'm not sure it is reasonable to say that even if a low handicapper hit the bunker, they would still be confident of getting their par (more than 50% probability)?

The logic of higher handicappers finding a par 3 relatively easier does make some sense. For example, if a player got 18 shots, these would be equally divided over all holes, to get one shot a hole. That is fair enough, very easy to split them that way. However, that does not make it factual that every hole is exactly 1 shot harder for the guy that has a handicap 18 shots more. In general, I wouldn't be suprised that the higher handicapper shoots a relatively higher average hole score compared to the low guy on the longer holes, whereas the relative difference in par 3's would be closer. After all, par 3's are shorter, and there is less yardage for them demonstrate their weaknesses compared to the lower handicapper. So, it may be that the higher handicapper will be at an advantage on the shorter holes (assuming they get their shot), but on the flip side that might mean that on the long holes they get shots, they could actually doe with a bit more. So, hopefully it all balances out in the end.
 
An on form 18 handicapper is likely to have more pars during a round than a scratch golfer birdies. The big scores of the 18 handicapper are mitigated by having a partner. 2 scratch golfers can both shoot 3 under with birdies on different holes and not compete.
 
Most (obviously not all) high handicappers can get the odd par in a round, maybe even a lucky birdie but they will have a lot of blobs or 1 pointers. However, because of the wonderful way that 4BBB works, these 3/4/5 pointers will probably fit in very nicely with their steady partner getting net pars and the odd birdie and thus leading to higher scores than singles play. It is not due to long par 3s, short par 4s or any other sort of weird statistical method ;)
 
"most likely", "it maybe", " most occasions", "can come off with", "I'd imagine", "I wouldn't be suprised (sic)", "will probably"

An awful lot of speculation here ;):unsure:
 
Neilds said:
Most (obviously not all) high handicappers can get the odd par in a round, maybe even a lucky birdie but they will have a lot of blobs or 1 pointers. However, because of the wonderful way that 4BBB works, these 3/4/5 pointers will probably fit in very nicely with their steady partner getting net pars and the odd birdie and thus leading to higher scores than singles play. It is not due to long par 3s, short par 4s or any other sort of weird statistical method ;)
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You're pointing to synchronicity, possibly the most important factor in fourball success. it's the good chance that when one partner is having a bad hole the other is having a good one. And if enough of the good ones are really good ones, they're on a winner.

I first realised that in a fourball match many years ago when my partner was struggling with an injury and unable to contribute much. At the turn, my own score was 3 below my handicap yet we were 4 down. The opposition had enjoyed a luckily well synchronised run resulting in a number of net birdies and nothing worse than net par. After the turn, it was just the same. ?

You can over analyse the detail but overlook the broader impact of good luck when it comes to fourballs.
 
AnneLB said:
Can I play in a Betterball round, putting out on every hole, and submit a casual card at same time?
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Can you do it. Technically yes on todays recording systems like my EG. Should you do it? Probably not but I wouldn’t stop you if you were doing it to try and bring your handicap down. I’ll put my tin hat on now for all the pelters I’ll now get for saying that!
 
Jigger said:
Can you do it. Technically yes on todays recording systems like my EG. Should you do it? Probably not but I wouldn’t stop you if you were doing it to try and bring your handicap down. I’ll put my tin hat on now for all the pelters I’ll now get for saying that!
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You're not going to get pelted for your action, you've not committed an evil sin :)

However, as it is a Rules forum, I presume posters want the official.guidance, rather what individual golfers are happy to do themselves. And, the official guidance is a firm "no, you cannot do it" in the UK.

Some handicap secretaries might crack down on it firmly, if they know it is happening. Others might ignore it completely, and have your attitude (or just never know about it).

Also, the question I'd ask.you is this: if the player submits a score, they won't know if it will be good or bad before the round. You say you would be happy if it was to.get their handicap down, but what if it was a bad score and their handicap went up?
 
Jigger said:
Can you do it. Technically yes on todays recording systems like my EG. Should you do it? Probably not but I wouldn’t stop you if you were doing it to try and bring your handicap down. I’ll put my tin hat on now for all the pelters I’ll now get for saying that!
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The answer is no. Question continues to be asked and the answer is still the same.
 
Jigger said:
Can you do it. Technically yes on todays recording systems like my EG. Should you do it? Probably not but I wouldn’t stop you if you were doing it to try and bring your handicap down. I’ll put my tin hat on now for all the pelters I’ll now get for saying that!
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No, you can't do it.
 
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