Foxholer
Blackballed
[pedantry]
Actually, a Dropped ball is in play as soon as it has left the players hand.
[/pedantry]
Actually, a Dropped ball is in play as soon as it has left the players hand.
[/pedantry]
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
The question is would you require them to declare it as a provisional before they drop it or would you be ok with them declaring it after they drop it but before they make a stroke at it.
Foxholer
Blackballed
The question is would you require them to declare it as a provisional before they drop it or would you be ok with them declaring it after they drop it but before they make a stroke at it.
Why would it be any different to 'normal'?
So as long as it's declared Provisional before making a Stroke......
CliveW
Tour Winner
No it isn't, it is in play when it strikes the course.
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
These are good videos that explain water hazards quiet well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uByDf9wq-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yo0Iq1JvXA
There are loads of other ones by him as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uByDf9wq-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yo0Iq1JvXA
There are loads of other ones by him as well.
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
CliveW
Tour Winner
.... Because if you don't declare a provisional before dropping, (Rule 27-2), the dropped ball is then a substituted ball and becomes the ball in play and the original ball is "lost" (Rule 20-4) (Definition Lost Ball )
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Foxholer
Blackballed
True. I misinterpreted Colin's post. Though I can't actually see the wording that proves that. There is reference in there to 'play'-ing, which as yet, the player hasn't.
Same logic applies though - No different to 'Normal' So long as it's declared Provisional before the drop.
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backwoodsman
Tour Winner
And just to clarify, the same is true for provisional being played from the tee. Your first shot put a ball in play, so teeing up another without declaring it provisional is substituting.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I don't believe this is correct. see Post 15.
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
I don't think I'm at odds with post 15. Your original ball is not in play until you make the stroke - hence the ability to re-tee if it falls off etc. But after you play the first shot, you have a ball in play - until its lost or substituted.
North Mimms
Tour Winner
I vote we rename the rules section
How is it that discussion about Rules can be both extremely interesting, and supremely boring ?
rulefan
Tour Winner
THere is no requirement in the rule that a player has to make a declaration before dropping the ball.
It only requires the player to inform 'someone' he intends to play a provisional.
Although the ball may be 'in play', he hasn't 'played' it until he has made a stroke at it.
It only requires the player to inform 'someone' he intends to play a provisional.
Although the ball may be 'in play', he hasn't 'played' it until he has made a stroke at it.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Posts # 11, 12, 14, 15, 23, and 33
Trust them. :thup:
Trust them. :thup:
Foxholer
Blackballed
Ha! Out-pedanted!
You are correct.
@Colin & Rulefan. Thanks for the clarification. Re-reading Post 12, it should have been obvious - but it was late and CliveW was convincing!
First word of post 28 is wrong then - Post 23 was right after all. I think this is the 2nd time I've been round this loop, or one like it. There won't be a 3rd!!
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bobmac
Major Champion
A question for you all......
Just imagine your fellow competitor carves his approach shot into the rubbish. He then drops a ball from where he has just hit from then turns to you and says that ''this is a provisional'', would you try and penalise him for not declaring it a provisional BEFORE he dropped it?
Just imagine your fellow competitor carves his approach shot into the rubbish. He then drops a ball from where he has just hit from then turns to you and says that ''this is a provisional'', would you try and penalise him for not declaring it a provisional BEFORE he dropped it?
CliveW
Tour Winner
I think the confusion is with the wording "in play" in the rules. By definition, "A ball is in play as soon as a player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted, a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play".
The confusion seems to arise from "playing a ball" and "ball in play", instead of the former, think "striking the ball". Basically you cannot have two balls "in play" at any time, unless one is deemed to be a provisional, and you cannot declare a ball as lost, therefore if you substitute the original ball by dropping another, that ball is "in play" even though it hasn't been struck, and the original ball is lost. If, on the other hand, you declare you are playing a provisional, you must declare it before putting it "in Play" ie. before the ball touches the course.
The confusion seems to arise from "playing a ball" and "ball in play", instead of the former, think "striking the ball". Basically you cannot have two balls "in play" at any time, unless one is deemed to be a provisional, and you cannot declare a ball as lost, therefore if you substitute the original ball by dropping another, that ball is "in play" even though it hasn't been struck, and the original ball is lost. If, on the other hand, you declare you are playing a provisional, you must declare it before putting it "in Play" ie. before the ball touches the course.
CliveW
Tour Winner
Yes, if it were Strokeplay. However in Matchplay, you can choose to ignore a breach of the rules if you so wish, and therefore I would draw it to the player's attention and wouldn't call the penalty.
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Foxholer
Blackballed
Clive. See Posts 33 and 34 - and 12!
Can you quote me the text from any Rule stating that you can't have two balls 'in play' at the same time - other than a provisional?
That seems to be an observation that you have turned into a Rule. And the original observation wasn't absolutely rigorous.
In answer to Bob's question - which I think was an attempt to apply some simplicity to the situation...
No.
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CliveW
Tour Winner
Just dashing out, so will reply fully later, but re the two balls in play question, the original ball is lost as soon as another is substituted, unless it is declared as a provisional. (See Definitions, Lost Ball)
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