Stupid rules questions.... (sorry)

[Colin L]

I think the confusion is with the wording "in play" in the rules. By definition, "A ball is in play as soon as a player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted, a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play".

The confusion seems to arise from "playing a ball" and "ball in play", instead of the former, think "striking the ball". Basically you cannot have two balls "in play" at any time, unless one is deemed to be a provisional, and you cannot declare a ball as lost, therefore if you substitute the original ball by dropping another, that ball is "in play" even though it hasn't been struck, and the original ball is lost. If, on the other hand, you declare you are playing a provisional, you must declare it before putting it "in Play" ie. before the ball touches the course.

Clive, I suggested trusting Posts # 11, 12, 14, 15, 23, and 33 but clearly you don't. So as the untrusted author of two of them () i have to ask you what these words actually say to you?

The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball [Rule 27-2]

When does the player actually carry out his intention to play the ball other than when he makes a stroke at it? Making the stroke is the commitment either to a provisional ball or to a substituted ball played under Rule 27-1.

So what is the status of a ball dropped with the intention of its being a provisional ball. It is in play and you would, for example incur a penalty if you accidentally moved it. It is not, however, the ball in play. That is still the original ball. Once you make a stroke at it, it remains as a ball in play but provisionally: it is still not the ball in play and will not become so until the original is lost, or found out of bounds or you have made a stroke at the provisional ball from where the original is likely to be or nearer the hole.

By suggesting that once a ball is dropped or placed in substitution the original ball is lost is not correct. You are overlooking the implications of Rule 20-6 which I mentioned above. Having dropped or placed a ball you can, before playing it, correct any error in doing so without penalty. The significant factor in this is playing the ball: that is the moment of commitment.

You have also misread the Definition of a lost ball which clearly states that a ball is lost when ..
e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

 

[Region3]

No it isn't, it is in play when it strikes the course.

Not doubting this because enough knowledgeable people have agreed, but whenever you see a drop in front of a referee on TV, they don't say "the ball is in play" until it has stopped moving. I always assumed this was in case it finished either in front of the NPR or rolled more than 2 club lengths.

Have I been misinterpreting what was going on?

 

[Foxholer]

Not doubting this because enough knowledgeable people have agreed, but whenever you see a drop in front of a referee on TV, they don't say "the ball is in play" until it has stopped moving. I always assumed this was in case it finished either in front of the NPR or rolled more than 2 club lengths.

Have I been misinterpreting what was going on?

Convenience by ROs imo. Two slightly different meanings of the same expression.

Ball is in play when it strikes the course. But (subsequently) a Re-drop may be required, so they wait. The expression/comment by the RO is simply an apt expression. 'Play away' could just as easily be used - and i have heard it used.

 

[rulefan]

Not doubting this because enough knowledgeable people have agreed, but whenever you see a drop in front of a referee on TV, they don't say "the ball is in play" until it has stopped moving. I always assumed this was in case it finished either in front of the NPR or rolled more than 2 club lengths.

Have I been misinterpreting what was going on?

Referees are usually advised not to use those words because of possible confusion.

You will never see a referee, close by, say to a player who hasn't spoken the fateful word 'provisional' prior to dropping the ball, tell the player that the ball is now the ball in play. He will almost certainly ask if he intends it to be a provisional. Of course an aware referee would ask the question before the ball is dropped.

 

[CliveW]

Right, as I see it, the confusion appears to be around when a dropped ball is in play, be it either a provisional or substituted ball. The ball is in play as soon as it touches the course, not when it is struck, or played with a club (See Definitions - Ball In Play) If it was when it is played or struck, then if you drop the ball and you didn't like the lie, say it ended in a divot or below your feet, then you would be entitled to a re-drop, which is not the case. You can re-drop for example, if the ball comes to rest nearer to the hole than allowed, rolls into a hazard, out of a hazard, on to a putting green, out of bounds etc (Rule 20-2c).

Post 11 is wrong it is not when you play it, it is when it is IN PLAY
Post 12 is correct to start with, but you cannot drop a ball and the redrop saying it is a provisional, as the original dropped ball because it wasn't stated as a provisional became the ball in play and the original baal became lost.
Post 14 is correct, only on the teeing ground.
Post 15 is also correct to start with until you mention Rule 27-1. Putting the ball in play by dropping the ball is where the penalty comes from and is therefore counted as a stroke.
Post 23 I have alredy covered as the ball is in play when it is dropped, not when you have made the stroke
Post 33 He is playing the provisional when he is dropping the ball. It is a provisional before it is struck.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Post 11 is wrong it is not when you play it, it is when it is IN PLAY

Extract from Rule 27-2 Provisional ball (my bold).......
The player must inform his*opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

Now, can't really believe this is now well into page 2 after posting #11 but........

If you declare a provisional after you have dropped it but before you hit it then it's OK. Period.

PS Please don't come on and say technically it's "make a stroke" rather than "hit it" or I may collapse

Edit: Furthermore, a provisional ball is not the ball in play until one of the conditions in rule 27-2b is met.

 

[CliveW]

If that were the case, then if you drop the ball and it comes to rest and it subsequently moves before you strike it, what is the ruling?

 

[Imurg]

If you declare a provisional after you have dropped it but before you hit it then it's OK. Period.

Agreed BUT..

Maybe it shouldn't be...
A bit like the "signing the card " debate a while back, maybe there should be a "timeline" defined.
Logically you should have to declare that you are playing a Provo BEFORE you drop it, not after in the same way that you should have to sign the card AFTER the round. Ok, neither of these are as I have said but logically you should have to declare your intention before you act.

 

[Fyldewhite]

If that were the case, then if you drop the ball and it comes to rest and it subsequently moves before you strike it, what is the ruling?

If it becomes the ball in play then all penalties and strokes are applied at that point as if it had been in play all along.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Agreed BUT..

Maybe it shouldn't be...
A bit like the "signing the card " debate a while back, maybe there should be a "timeline" defined.
Logically you should have to declare that you are playing a Provo BEFORE you drop it, not after in the same way that you should have to sign the card AFTER the round. Ok, neither of these are as I have said but logically you should have to declare your intention before you act.

Yes, I agree that this is maybe a loophole that you won't find anywhere else in the rules. You could drop the ball, find it nicely perched on a tuft and decide to play under stroke and distance hitting 3 wood, or find the ball sat down and play it with a 9 iron as a provisional. This introduces an element of choice which the rules generally eliminate.

 

[backwoodsman]

Hmmm.

Am afraid I am still unsure despite some of the explanations of the more experienced & knowledgeable amongst us. If I can explain my thinking, someone will hopefully show me the flaws.

You play a ball into “the wilds” where a provisional would be desirable and permitted – ie it may be lost or OOB. You may play a provisional under rule 27-2. Alternatively you are permitted to play another ball under stroke & distance 27-1. A player may substitute a ball in these circumstances. Even if you do not say it is to be a provisional, the ball has still been dropped in accordance with the rules – as dropping there is permitted under S&D.

Rule 20-6 allows correction of errors due to a “ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules” but this ball has been dropped in the right place and in accordance with the rules, so 20-6 should not apply.


Under rule 15-2, when you drop or place a substituted ball, it becomes the ball in play. The original ball ceases to be the ball in play (by definition) – although it is not a lost ball (also by definition because you have not made a stroke at the substitute).

Now you have the ball in play, at your feet. It is neither lost nor OOB. So where does the provision for playing a provisional ball come in?

I guess the thing I’m getting at is, that if the above is not flawed – how do you stop a substituted ball becoming the ball in play unless you say its to be a provisional before you drop it?

(Ps does not decision 27-1/2 somewhat support this?. Although not identical circumstances since the possibility of a provisional had long passed,, the act of dropping the ball made it become the ball in play even though the original was not lost)

Am going to have to disappear so look forward to reading later.

 

[Foxholer]

Right, as I see it, the confusion appears to be around when a dropped ball is in play, be it either a provisional or substituted ball. The ball is in play as soon as it touches the course, not when it is struck, or played with a club (See Definitions - Ball In Play) If it was when it is played or struck, then if you drop the ball and you didn't like the lie, say it ended in a divot or below your feet, then you would be entitled to a re-drop, which is not the case. You can re-drop for example, if the ball comes to rest nearer to the hole than allowed, rolls into a hazard, out of a hazard, on to a putting green, out of bounds etc (Rule 20-2c).

Post 11 is wrong it is not when you play it, it is when it is IN PLAY
Post 12 is correct to start with, but you cannot drop a ball and the redrop saying it is a provisional, as the original dropped ball because it wasn't stated as a provisional became the ball in play and the original baal became lost.
Post 14 is correct, only on the teeing ground.
Post 15 is also correct to start with until you mention Rule 27-1. Putting the ball in play by dropping the ball is where the penalty comes from and is therefore counted as a stroke.
Post 23 I have alredy covered as the ball is in play when it is dropped, not when you have made the stroke
Post 33 He is playing the provisional when he is dropping the ball. It is a provisional before it is struck.

No. You are wrong wherever you deem a ball 'in play' to be out of scope to be declared as a Provisional. See the quote of the rule in post 46. If it was as you believe, the wording would not be 'plays' but 'puts a ball in play'. Remember, no interpretation; read the rule literally!

The confusion (yours) is considering that a ball in play cannot subsequently be declared (a) Provisional. Please point out the text in the Rules that states (or means) that!

If that were the case, then if you drop the ball and it comes to rest and it subsequently moves before you strike it, what is the ruling?

You apply the appropriate Rule - 18 Ball at Rest Moved.

 

[Colin L]

Right, as I see it, the confusion appears to be around when a dropped ball is in play, be it either a provisional or substituted ball. The ball is in play as soon as it touches the course, not when it is struck, or played with a club (See Definitions - Ball In Play) If it was when it is played or struck, then if you drop the ball and you didn't like the lie, say it ended in a divot or below your feet, then you would be entitled to a re-drop, which is not the case. You can re-drop for example, if the ball comes to rest nearer to the hole than allowed, rolls into a hazard, out of a hazard, on to a putting green, out of bounds etc (Rule 20-2c).

Post 11 is wrong it is not when you play it, it is when it is IN PLAY
Post 12 is correct to start with, but you cannot drop a ball and the redrop saying it is a provisional, as the original dropped ball because it wasn't stated as a provisional became the ball in play and the original baal became lost.
Post 14 is correct, only on the teeing ground.
Post 15 is also correct to start with until you mention Rule 27-1. Putting the ball in play by dropping the ball is where the penalty comes from and is therefore counted as a stroke.
Post 23 I have alredy covered as the ball is in play whe it is dropped, not when you have made the stroke
Post 33 He is playing the provisional when he is dropping the ball. It is a provisional before it is struck.

Do you know, Clive, for the first time since I joined this forum and began contributing, I am beginning to get irritated. This post makes it feel as if we are getting an exam paper marked. The problem is that the candidates seem to be more knowledgeable than the marker.

Would you like to explain the difference between dropping a ball (which is then in play) and putting a ball into play?

 

[Fyldewhite]

The issue has been clouded by a few red herrings but the basic misconception here is that a provisional ball is "in play". It isn't, it's subject to the rules and any penalties etc and when/if it becomes the ball in play then those are applied. If it was in play once dropped then 27-2b would say so......the clue is in the title 27-2b When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play. As Mr Foxholer has pointed out many times, the rules are literal....... it's a provisional ball until one of the conditions in 27-2b are met and that doesn't include "when it is dropped".

So, just to re-iterate........If you declare a provisional after you have dropped it but before you hit it then it's OK. Period.

 

[rulefan]

I am awaiting confirmation

 

[Odvan]

Adam6177, look what you have started!

And this is the thing whereby I can empathise with the OP. I guess you've all been there at some point with regards to 'first comps' though. I too am going to show up for my first midweek roll-up as a member on Friday and although I cant get my cards yet, am doing so to simply gain some experience in marking a card (yes, that's what I said!) and to also meet some members and get out there with them in comp conditions.

But in relation to this thread, the daunting thing for a newbie is that despite many people in here being well versed in playing the game, look at how much debate one particular question has brought to the fore - and one that from my perspective would be one that would definitely be applicable to me and no doubt many other new starters (to comps). Transfer this thread to the course and it's scenarios like this that kinda puts me off and adds to the nerves as no bugger (generalisation) seems to know the rules and that's despite all the rulebook quotations! Or at least have different interpretations of them. It can be quite intimidating to a newbie all this chatter ya know!

So, just to re-iterate........If you declare a provisional after you have dropped it but before you hit it then it's OK. Period.

Or should it have been as simple as that in the first place.... ^^, as per post #2 and thread closed?

*Edit* - Just seen Rulefan's latest post, perhaps not!

 

[Deleted member 18121]

It was a rules enforcer that actually made me stop playing comps.... completely killed the enjoyment by making a 14 year old cry on course by telling him he'd report him for a rules breach and DQ him from the comp.

Believe it or not I'm 34 years old and run a department in a financial firm in London....I deal with millions and millions of £££ every day and am fine with that......but put me on a course and ask me about a ball hit into a lake or a bush and its another story.

Maybe I don't actually need a current handicap..... lol

 

[Foxholer]

Do you know, Clive, for the first time since I joined this forum and began contributing, I am beginning to get irritated. This post makes it feel as if we are getting an exam paper marked. The problem is that the candidates seem to be more knowledgeable than the marker.

Such diplomacy! You'd make an a good candidate for a Golf Referee/RO. Oh hang on! You are one! :thup:

Diplomacy only makes rare appearances on my CV these days!

It was a rules enforcer that actually made me stop playing comps.... completely killed the enjoyment by making a 14 year old cry on course by telling him he'd report him for a rules breach and DQ him from the comp......

Perhaps a bit more diplomatic than some idiots though!

 

[CliveW]

OK, I too think this is getting out of control. I will ask my pro tomorrow what he thinks the ruling is. He is a qualified referee with the R&A and PGA and has refereed in 3 majors including one in the USA. He also refereed between Tiger Woods and Robert Karlson in the Ryder Cup at the K Club, so presumably knows what he is talking about.

 

[Colin L]

OK, I too think this is getting out of control. I will ask my pro tomorrow what he thinks the ruling is. He is a qualified referee with the R&A and PGA and has refereed in 3 majors including one in the USA. He also refereed between Tiger Woods and Robert Karlson in the Ryder Cup at the K Club, so presumably knows what he is talking about.

I expect that the confirmation Rulefan is waiting for will be from the R&A.