Strokes Gained - No Laying Up podcast

[chimpo1]

This I can agree with. But you still can't knock it close out off deep rough or from behind a tree. Once you can hit the ball 200yds on the short stuff and can limit your three putts to maybe 1 a round then yes... improving your approach play will reap huge benefits.


I'll contribute to this thread weather I've read the book or not thank you - you are free to ignore what I say. I will still contend that the amateur golfers that I see day in day out at my club would score a lot better by being 10 yards shorter and ten yards closer to the middle of the fairway. They would improve scores far more by developing their course management than hitting the ball 20 yards further. They would knock shots off in no time if they could control distance with the putter better. Get them hitting the ball ten yards further and five yards more wayward and the only thing that will improve is the players knowledge of different tree types!!

I'm guessing that the better player you are the more likely you are to be able to recover from a wayward shot, so the pros/elite amateurs can be as wayward as they want in the knowledge that they have the technique, strength etc. to overcome the more difficult lies they might experience and still find the greens. In this scenario then I can see that "longer is better". But the amateur golfer cant gouge as well as the tour bombers.

The point i make is that if you are interested enough to comment here then the book is a good read. If stats are not your thing then I wouldn’t recommend it so much

 

[nickjdavis]

The point i make is that if you are interested enough to comment here then the book is a good read. If stats are not your thing then I wouldn’t recommend it so much

It didn't come across that way but hell, we can all interpret things written on tinternet in the wrong way. I've ordered the book and having consumed a couple of bottles of Rum Cask Aged Smoked Baltic Porter I'm mellow enough to not be holding a grudge.

 

[davemc1]

Not read through the thread so sorry if asking s duplicate question

is there a strokes gained hc table? Be more valuable to see where I’m dropping shots in comparison to similar hc to myself

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Not read through the thread so sorry if asking s duplicate question

is there a strokes gained hc table? Be more valuable to see where I’m dropping shots in comparison to similar hc to myself

Not seen a table, but that’s one thing Game Golf does for you, you can choose a round or all your rounds an compare against scratch, 5, 10, 15, etc handicap.

 

[Jacko_G]

One good analogy in that podcast is Broadie talking about EduardoMolinari talking about importance of long game vs short game in pro to amateurwas if you play 2 x 9 hole contest with him- one from a 200 yard approach and 1from just on the green- he will probably wipe the floor on both but with theputting one you will probably have a 25-30% chance of beating him, the longgame no chance!

Nick you should read the book and listen to the podcast itis a bit of an eye opener- you can go in with an open mind but I think youwould be turned into a different way of thinking once you read the stats and bythe sound of it you are into stats.

On the podcast he does actually state how many expectedgains an 80 round player has over a 90 round player and it really isn’t thatmuch (on average- I can’t remember the exact figure).

From my perspective Arcoss has me as a 6.7 handicap putter(my actual HC in 16.3) and Arcoss has me overall 15.9 so pretty close. Mydriving, approach and pitching/chipping are all poor though so this is where Iknow I need to concentrate. My approach is my highest perceived handicap with arelative HC of 20.8- hitting only 1/3 GIR and leaving 30 footers on those GIR so this is the area I am now working on.

I hardly think that is rocket science or some radical thinking. Of course you have a chance of holing a putt, absolutely no chance are you consistently hitting the ball from 200 yards better than a tour level professional!

 

[MendieGK]

I hardly think that is rocket science or some radical thinking. Of course you have a chance of holing a putt, absolutely no chance are you consistently hitting the ball from 200 yards better than a tour level professional!

I agree it’s not rocket science, but when GM posed the question below a few years ago on social media, I think approx 80% voted for B.

Who would win....

A) tour pro hitting all long game shots, 18 handicapper chipping and putting

Or

B) 18 handicapper hitting all long game shots, tour pro chipping and putting.

I remember having debates with people trying to explain how mad they were

 

[pinberry]

Not read through the thread so sorry if asking s duplicate question

is there a strokes gained hc table? Be more valuable to see where I’m dropping shots in comparison to similar hc to myself

I think you don't quite need a table. What you'd find is that you are "equally worse" in all areas of your game. What does that mean? Usually, a 10hcp (or a scratch player, or a 20hcp) would say things like "If I improved my chipping I could play 5 shots better" or "If I straighten my driving I could get cut easily" etc. Unfortunately, by and large, these statements are all false. If you are a 10hcp and you are trying to figure how to get down to five, the answer is that despite your perceptions, all areas of your game will need an "equal" amount of improvement.

I know this sounds counterintuitive, but it really isn't. You get better at golf by working on all aspects of your game, with an emphasis on long game and then short game/putting.

 

[r0wly86]

I think you don't quite need a table. What you'd find is that you are "equally worse" in all areas of your game. What does that mean? Usually, a 10hcp (or a scratch player, or a 20hcp) would say things like "If I improved my chipping I could play 5 shots better" or "If I straighten my driving I could get cut easily" etc. Unfortunately, by and large, these statements are all false. If you are a 10hcp and you are trying to figure how to get down to five, the answer is that despite your perceptions, all areas of your game will need an "equal" amount of improvement.

I know this sounds counterintuitive, but it really isn't. You get better at golf by working on all aspects of your game, with an emphasis on long game and then short game/putting.

Whilst of course true that to improve in general you have to work on all parts of your game. For most amateur golfers there will be low hanging fruit that can be improved with minimal practice or change in technique.

Rebuilding a swing to get more distance or more consistency is a major undertaking and will take hours or practice on the range. Obviously if that's what you need to do to get down to where you want then so be it.

But lots of people will be say bad at chipping, and duff or thin their chips. This can easily cost 2-5 shots a round so the low hanging fruit is to improve your chipping technique and is a lot easier than changing your swing.

Whilst I am not disagreeing with your post I can definitely see where others are coming from. If you take 38 putts per round then something is wrong in either your technique or reading of the greens and could be an easy win to focus on that rather than your game as a whole

 

[Jacko_G]

I agree it’s not rocket science, but when GM posed the question below a few years ago on social media, I think approx 80% voted for B.

Who would win....

A) tour pro hitting all long game shots, 18 handicapper chipping and putting

Or

B) 18 handicapper hitting all long game shots, tour pro chipping and putting.

I remember having debates with people trying to explain how mad they were

Cheers, I guess I picked up wrongly what was trying to be explained.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I think you don't quite need a table. What you'd find is that you are "equally worse" in all areas of your game. What does that mean? Usually, a 10hcp (or a scratch player, or a 20hcp) would say things like "If I improved my chipping I could play 5 shots better" or "If I straighten my driving I could get cut easily" etc. Unfortunately, by and large, these statements are all false. If you are a 10hcp and you are trying to figure how to get down to five, the answer is that despite your perceptions, all areas of your game will need an "equal" amount of improvement.

I know this sounds counterintuitive, but it really isn't. You get better at golf by working on all aspects of your game, with an emphasis on long game and then short game/putting.

That doesn’t help the point though, it’s obvious a handicap Golfer would benefit improving all aspects, I believe he’s looking for something more specific, ie, using Game Golf and me off 12 and my last 3 rounds against a 5 Handicap.

Losing 1.72 shots off the Tee
Losing 3.60 shots against approach
Losing 2.21 shots against short game
Gaining 0.66 shots putting.

Using the above I could structure my practise to focus in the weaker areas, whilst still not ignoring putting.

Maybe 50% Long Irons, 20% both driving and short game and 10% putting.

Or maybe going to the range or in the net rather than putting green before I play.

 

[MendieGK]

Cheers, I guess I picked up wrongly what was trying to be explained.

I was agreeing with you100% just saying many golfers don’t realise that they are a lot closer to being a tour prop standard putter than they are tour pro standard ball striker

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

TBF I think most 'competent' golfers know where they need to make improvements without resorting to stats. We've all come off the course thinking 'If only I could drive/pitch/chip/putt*' I would be a decent golfer

*delete as appropriate

 

[Mike07]

Hey buddy. Any form of strokes gained is going to require every yardage of shot to be recorded. I use the Taylormade app, and either press my phone every time in a friendly round. Or write everything down on another scorecard and do after the round.

This website is perfect for putting strokes gained stats -
https://www.golfrankingstats.com/strokes-gained-calculator/

I really like the interface of the taylormade app. So you just click the club used everyone you hit..? What about putting, just estimate the length of putts..?

Seems Arccos might be the best ‘hands off’ approach to collecting the data.

Clearly strokes gained is the best stat tracking method in golf, something one keen to start doing... but having used game golf in the past, I need it to be intuiative and not get in the way of playing golf.

 

[inc0gnito]

I couldn’t see a recent podcast called ‘strokes gained no laying up’. I’ve found the ‘on the mark’ podcasts by mark broadie but nothing by that name in his recent posts. im probably being dumb but where can I find it?

 

[pendodave]

Go to the no laying up website. The link is front central. Podcast 135

 

[inc0gnito]

Go to the no laying up website. The link is front central. Podcast 135

couldnt see any link but google was my friend. Cheers

 

[MendieGK]

I really like the interface of the taylormade app. So you just click the club used everyone you hit..? What about putting, just estimate the length of putts..?

Seems Arccos might be the best ‘hands off’ approach to collecting the data.

Clearly strokes gained is the best stat tracking method in golf, something one keen to start doing... but having used game golf in the past, I need it to be intuiative and not get in the way of playing golf.

Yeah that’s it. It is a little fiddly whilst playing. Once you select ‘putter’ as the club you’re using it asks you to mark where the flag is and then just press where your putts where from.

I would say using the app whilst playing definitely interferes more than game golf does. Hence my just writing stuff on a separate card

 

[Mike07]

Yeah that’s it. It is a little fiddly whilst playing. Once you select ‘putter’ as the club you’re using it asks you to mark where the flag is and then just press where your putts where from.

I would say using the app whilst playing definitely interferes more than game golf does. Hence my just writing stuff on a separate card

Thanks Sam.

When I looked into strokes gained last year I found this website and app

http://www.shotbyshot.com

Interface is awful but it could be a good alternative

 

[Seamer]

I've been using the GolfPad GPS app for a while now, that gives me strokes gained, I have to admit though I have no idea what I'm looking at, I'll have days where I think my short game has been shocking and my driving has been above average for me but then the strokes gained stats will tell me the opposite

I'll give the podcast a listen it might help me understand what I'm looking at

 

[Mike07]

That might be the case on tour style courses but it certainly wouldn't work round my home course. If you miss the fairway it is shortest route back to the fairway out of the heather.

If you listen to the podcast, he explains how the strokes gained system differentiates between a shot in the rough where you can still go for the green and a shot into an area which needs to be recovered from i.e. whack it into play. So it would be fine for all courses it seems