D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Mendie, have you looked at Game Golf and how they use the information to show strokes gained etc?
And that we expect to make every 6 footer when in fact the pro's make less than 2/3 of these!!! I've read the book it's very good.
I'm a bit confused by that calculator though- what do you put for distance to the pin- is it from the tee, from the approach, or do you go back and do from every shot? Seems a lot of manual work.
PS Mark Broadie actually has an app (need monthly subscription) that you can enter all the shots and gives you an in depth analysis of every shot.
Again too much manual input for me- I've got Arcoss 360 which is based on his SG system and although doesn't give you actual SG stats tells you your relevant handicap for each element of the game which is enough for me to know what I need to work on.
Mendie, have you looked at Game Golf and how they use the information to show strokes gained etc?
I’ve found it useful to help focus on certain aspects or to relax and worry less about others.Yeah i've stopped using Game Golf now, but the figures are very consistent with every other app/programme i have used
So for any given round I play at my club in a competition for example....how do I know what the average is? In my opinion, Strokes Gained is a totally meaningless stat for the average club golfer as there is no REAL data to make the comparison against.
This means you haven't quite understood the value of Strokes Gained. As long as everyone compares to the same average, it does not matter what the average is. Sure, you average will be a lot worse than a PGA tour player on all metrics. But so will your buddies average.
The other point is, even though the average of a PGA tour player is out of reach for all of us, you can still draw conclusions on your game. Mark Broadie, in his book, does a good job at presenting strokes gained stats for different playing abilities, so you have that comparison if you want.
The overall message is that the widespread myth about improving putting and short game in order to get better it's just a fairy tale. All amateurs will greatly benefit from improving their long game.
OK....
1) I'm not interested in my "budddies averages"...I couldn't care less how my game is improving/declining compared to theirs.
2) I get that, as long as I compare to a common baseline, then I can track my ongoing progress....but knowing that I'm losing 4.7 shots on my long game to a PGA Pro is one thing....knowing WHY I'm losing 4.7 shots is something totally different. I don't know that the shots gained system can give me this direct insight without drilling down into the raw statistical shot yardage/accuracy data that I already personally use. I'll admit that I wasn't aware that there were "shots gained" stats available for a variety of handicap categories....but then I'm guessing that these are based on US handicaps and the relevance of the US handicap to a UK handicap is something for discussion elsewhere!!!
3)When you say "long game"....do you mean with driver off the tee???...or do you mean from 140 yards to 180yards out....i.e. mid/long iron/hybrid/fairway play??? I cant see that improving your drives from 230yds to 250 yds will significantly reduce scores (unless you are totally wild off the tee) compared with improving your approach accuracy from 140-180yds. Of course a lot of this is dependent upon the courses that you play most frequently.....there are 5 par 3's at my place so improving my driving wont help improve my scores on any of them and there are another 4 holes where the layout dictates that driver is not perhaps the best club to hit!! Effectively I have 9 holes at most where improvements in my driving play will lead to improved scores.
4)I cant agree with dismissing improving your short game as a means of improving your scores, simply as a "fairy tale". With regards putting....I think a significant number of golfers would reduce scores easily with better distance control....its not hard with a bit of practice...and the amount of players I see knock the ball 30,40 50 yards further down the fairway than me and then thin their approach 50 yards through the green, leads me to conclude that a lot of them would benefit from improving their short game.
My own use of stats is largely based around the philosophy of....
1) you cant putt the ball in the holes unless your ball is on the green and close,
2) you cant get the ball on the green and close unless your approach play is good
3) your tee shot should not put you in a position where it hinders you from hitting the green.
So effectively there comes a time when your shots with your driver are "good enough" and it becomes necessary to focus on other aspects of your game.
If you are contributing to this thread then I recommend you read the book. It clearly states, and Broadie repeats this in the podcast that distance is the key to lower scores. Getting the ball closer to the hole from every shot, tee, approach, short is the key. Stats show that being 30 yards closer to the hole in the rough is better than being 50 yards away in the middle of the fairway for example. That is why the PGA tour is filled with bombers and luke Donald cannot compete anymore.
This I can agree with. But you still can't knock it close out off deep rough or from behind a tree. Once you can hit the ball 200yds on the short stuff and can limit your three putts to maybe 1 a round then yes... improving your approach play will reap huge benefits.Ultimately, Broadie was asked where amateurs should look to improve, and his answer was approach shots from 150 yards and in. If you knock them closer, then it puts you in a better position.
If you are contributing to this thread then I recommend you read the book. It clearly states, and Broadie repeats this in the podcast that distance is the key to lower scores. Getting the ball closer to the hole from every shot, tee, approach, short is the key. Stats show that being 30 yards closer to the hole in the rough is better than being 50 yards away in the middle of the fairway for example. That is why the PGA tour is filled with bombers and luke Donald cannot compete anymore.
That might be the case on tour style courses but it certainly wouldn't work round my home course. If you miss the fairway it is shortest route back to the fairway out of the heather.
If you are contributing to this thread then I recommend you read the book. It clearly states, and Broadie repeats this in the podcast that distance is the key to lower scores. Getting the ball closer to the hole from every shot, tee, approach, short is the key. Stats show that being 30 yards closer to the hole in the rough is better than being 50 yards away in the middle of the fairway for example. That is why the PGA tour is filled with bombers and luke Donald cannot compete anymore.
That might be the case on tour style courses but it certainly wouldn't work round my home course. If you miss the fairway it is shortest route back to the fairway out of the heather.
I ordered Shot Scope v2 yesterday so that I can get my stats. They have what they call 'shots to finish' which they say is their version of shots gained. I'll be interested how this works for me as I definitely prefer distance over safety as an aim off the tee. If anyone has this device perhaps you could post how it works for you.
Let me know how you get on with it- I bought arcoss as Shotscope didn't have great analytics at the time but I understand they have changed this- they also claim to have more accurate putter readings
Let me know how you get on with it- I bought arcoss as Shotscope didn't have great analytics at the time but I understand they have changed this- they also claim to have more accurate putter readings
OK....
1) I'm not interested in my "budddies averages"...I couldn't care less how my game is improving/declining compared to theirs.
2) I get that, as long as I compare to a common baseline, then I can track my ongoing progress....but knowing that I'm losing 4.7 shots on my long game to a PGA Pro is one thing....knowing WHY I'm losing 4.7 shots is something totally different. I don't know that the shots gained system can give me this direct insight without drilling down into the raw statistical shot yardage/accuracy data that I already personally use. I'll admit that I wasn't aware that there were "shots gained" stats available for a variety of handicap categories....but then I'm guessing that these are based on US handicaps and the relevance of the US handicap to a UK handicap is something for discussion elsewhere!!!
3)When you say "long game"....do you mean with driver off the tee???...or do you mean from 140 yards to 180yards out....i.e. mid/long iron/hybrid/fairway play??? I cant see that improving your drives from 230yds to 250 yds will significantly reduce scores (unless you are totally wild off the tee) compared with improving your approach accuracy from 140-180yds. Of course a lot of this is dependent upon the courses that you play most frequently.....there are 5 par 3's at my place so improving my driving wont help improve my scores on any of them and there are another 4 holes where the layout dictates that driver is not perhaps the best club to hit!! Effectively I have 9 holes at most where improvements in my driving play will lead to improved scores.
4)I cant agree with dismissing improving your short game as a means of improving your scores, simply as a "fairy tale". With regards putting....I think a significant number of golfers would reduce scores easily with better distance control....its not hard with a bit of practice...and the amount of players I see knock the ball 30,40 50 yards further down the fairway than me and then thin their approach 50 yards through the green, leads me to conclude that a lot of them would benefit from improving their short game.
My own use of stats is largely based around the philosophy of....
1) you cant putt the ball in the holes unless your ball is on the green and close,
2) you cant get the ball on the green and close unless your approach play is good
3) your tee shot should not put you in a position where it hinders you from hitting the green.
So effectively there comes a time when your shots with your driver are "good enough" and it becomes necessary to focus on other aspects of your game.
1) fair enough
2) Broadie, in his book, will tell you that 65% of the 4.7 shots you lose are due to long game, which includes everything. Drivers, iron play etc.
3) I mean everything. Although people think of driving and approach as two different things, in reality they are not. The quality of your long game is dictated by the quality of your swing. The only difference might be lenght, where hitting long drivers comes at a premium. But if you swing well, your driving will improve and so will your approach game (from 100yds out)
4) I think you should agree with me. First, if you read Broadie's book, it'll all make sense. Second, I play off scratch and often play with guys who have a 10hcp. Although I tend to putt better than they do, the difference is not massive. However, when it comes to hitting golf shots, it's two different planets. Yet, by the end of the round, the usual comment revolves around my ability to get up and down when I miss the green and how they need to improve in that respect. Wrong! Yes, my short game is better, but my long game is even better compared to theirs. But the reality is, it takes a lot more effort to improve one's long game than spending 30 mins on the putting green. A 90 golfer, if putts to a scratch level, might turn into a 87 golfer. A 90 golfer, if he keeps his putting but strikes to ball to scratch level, will turn into a 75 golfer.
Mind you, I'm not saying that short game and putting should be disregarded, not at all. But most amateurs, after they plateu, they never ever work on their long game and will mostly focus on putting and short game. Ideally, you should allocate at least 60/70% of your practice time to the long game.