Slow play again

[Slab]

Has anyone's club ever undertaken a proper study of pace of play? By proper I don't mean just looking at when a group started and when a group finished play...I mean actually tracking a group (or more than one group) of players movements round a golf course by such means as a GPS the like of which walkers might use?

About 10 years ago I got hold of a few GPS units, set them up to log a players position on the course every 20 seconds or so and gave them to a few golfers spread out through the field, they didn't have to do anything, just give me the watches back at the then of the round and tell me their perception of whether it was a slow round or not.

When the data was analysed we were able to split the typical time to play a round into three distinct sections...actually playing the game...so the time taken to play and move around the course, standing around doing nothing time (whether it be on the tee or mid-hole) and the time taken to walk between holes. If I remember correctly, a typical round included a total of 23 minutes walking time between holes, 7-25 mins standing around doing nothing and the remaining time actually playing shots and moving from tee to green and...irrespective of whether a round took 4 hours or 5 hours, the perception of pace of play directly correlated to the amount of time a player stood around waiting to play....so you had some 4 hour rounds, where a group that were particularly quick were waiting on many shots and perceived the round as being slow. The groups behind them, maybe not quite so quick, perceived the pace to be acceptable or good. Likewise there were some rounds closer to 4hrs 40 mins played where the pace of play was noted as being good...simply because the standing around doing nothing time was negligible in comparison to

We were also able to use the data to determine the typical time it took to play each and every hole....our second hole for example is a long par 3....typically took 11 minutes to play...our tee intervals were 8 minutes apart....so it was no real surprise once you were four or five tee times in to a comp that there was a wait on the 2nd tee....and another on the 4th tee (another par 3 that had even more danger and typically took a group 13 minutes to play). Couple this with the fact that the data revealed that groups were teeing off on the first early and you can see that there would be a recipe for extreme slow movement around the course through the early holes.

Now, this might all seem obvious and there may be some of you reading this thinking...well I could have told you that would happen...but the point is, until you have the data to back up such reasoning, you don't have a leg to stand on to try to educate golfers into better practices (not teeing off early) or to try to get the golf club management to change tee intervals or introduce other measures to assist. Its no use relying on Joe Bloggs whinging in the bar about how slow it was to build an argument for change, clubs need to be pro-active in gathering data that can assist them in solving slow play issues. People can sit there and pontificate about slow/fast players all they like, but fundamentally, the general pace of play around a golf course is largely governed by the physical layout and design. It is only once you solve issues that may be arising from the course layout, that you can then go on and address issues with individual golfers who may have a reputation for being slow.

With modern smartphone technology and GPS logging apps being readily available it would not be difficult to undertake a similar study which would shed far more light on where a club (which has a chronic pace of play issue)

Too many bar stool juries won't consider any of this

Almost all our rounds are timed and tracked (gps buggys) not sure how much the data is used but it is collected
Buggy will tell you if you fall behind pace that day/ comp and by how many minutes
On its own it doesn't stop slow play (4 groups playing 18 at same time today) but as one of the tools it's very valuable data

 

[NearHull]

Has anyone's club ever undertaken a proper study of pace of play? By proper I don't mean just looking at when a group started and when a group finished play...I mean actually tracking a group (or more than one group) of players movements round a golf course by such means as a GPS the like of which walkers might use?

About 10 years ago I got hold of a few GPS units, set them up to log a players position on the course every 20 seconds or so and gave them to a few golfers spread out through the field, they didn't have to do anything, just give me the watches back at the then of the round and tell me their perception of whether it was a slow round or not.

When the data was analysed we were able to split the typical time to play a round into three distinct sections...actually playing the game...so the time taken to play and move around the course, standing around doing nothing time (whether it be on the tee or mid-hole) and the time taken to walk between holes. If I remember correctly, a typical round included a total of 23 minutes walking time between holes, 7-25 mins standing around doing nothing and the remaining time actually playing shots and moving from tee to green and...irrespective of whether a round took 4 hours or 5 hours, the perception of pace of play directly correlated to the amount of time a player stood around waiting to play....so you had some 4 hour rounds, where a group that were particularly quick were waiting on many shots and perceived the round as being slow. The groups behind them, maybe not quite so quick, perceived the pace to be acceptable or good. Likewise there were some rounds closer to 4hrs 40 mins played where the pace of play was noted as being good...simply because the standing around doing nothing time was negligible in comparison to

We were also able to use the data to determine the typical time it took to play each and every hole....our second hole for example is a long par 3....typically took 11 minutes to play...our tee intervals were 8 minutes apart....so it was no real surprise once you were four or five tee times in to a comp that there was a wait on the 2nd tee....and another on the 4th tee (another par 3 that had even more danger and typically took a group 13 minutes to play). Couple this with the fact that the data revealed that groups were teeing off on the first early and you can see that there would be a recipe for extreme slow movement around the course through the early holes.

Now, this might all seem obvious and there may be some of you reading this thinking...well I could have told you that would happen...but the point is, until you have the data to back up such reasoning, you don't have a leg to stand on to try to educate golfers into better practices (not teeing off early) or to try to get the golf club management to change tee intervals or introduce other measures to assist. Its no use relying on Joe Bloggs whinging in the bar about how slow it was to build an argument for change, clubs need to be pro-active in gathering data that can assist them in solving slow play issues. People can sit there and pontificate about slow/fast players all they like, but fundamentally, the general pace of play around a golf course is largely governed by the physical layout and design. It is only once you solve issues that may be arising from the course layout, that you can then go on and address issues with individual golfers who may have a reputation for being slow.

With modern smartphone technology and GPS logging apps being readily available it would not be difficult to undertake a similar study which would shed far more light on where a club (which has a chronic pace of play issue)

We are trying to carry out data gathering for pace of play and, being of a mature disposition, have tended to turn to paper recording and excel data analysis. You have got me thinking about automation and using gppositions - it strikes me that most ( all?) mobile phones can allow tracking. There must be some software in the public domain that could capture data from consenting members phones on the course - is there?

Eta. There are few Apps available that track multiple locations and send data at regular intervals by text. I would like to find one that updates an excel spreadsheet.

 

[IanM]

A player at the Augusta Women's Amateur was penalised a shot fir slow play... as a result, she missed the cut.

Start doing that on all Tours, watch play speed up as a result. Folk who watch tv golf will eventually stop copying the faffing about too.

One can but hope.

 

[Backache]

It isnt being ruined. Talk about over dramatic, or 1st world problems : I was out with my friends playing golf, and it took 4hrs 20 mins. I wanted it to take 3hrs 50 mins. Oh the horror !

Virtually any problem with golf including things like littering are not major in the overall scheme of things it doesn't mean the behaviour is not rude a, loutish and inconsiderate to other users of the course.

Delaying a whole course behind a slow group can result in people being unable to finish their rounds , people being late for other things, people getting very wet when bad weather encroaches.
It demonstrates selfishness and a lack of consideration to others

 

[SteveW86]

A player at the Augusta Women's Amateur was penalised a shot fir slow play... as a result, she missed the cut.

Start doing that on all Tours, watch play speed up as a result. Folk who watch tv golf will eventually stop copying the faffing about too.

One can but hope.

She got penalised last year too, you’d have thought it would have had more effect.

I believe she was also in Lottie Woad’s group

 

[Slab]

There's about a dozen reasons that impact pace of play and unless a club and its players deal with them all it'll only take one to fall for a round to be slow

It's a tall order

 

[Backsticks]

Virtually any problem with golf including things like littering are not major in the overall scheme of things it doesn't mean the behaviour is not rude a, loutish and inconsiderate to other users of the course.

Delaying a whole course behind a slow group can result in people being unable to finish their rounds , people being late for other things, people getting very wet when bad weather encroaches.
It demonstrates selfishness and a lack of consideration to others

Back to the beginning - how can you justify an expectation that others should play at your or faster pace ?
Why is your pace correct, and anything slower wrong ?

How do you allow for a typical club have a 30 shot difference - at least half an hour - in the pure playing of the game ?

 

[BiMGuy]

We are trying to carry out data gathering for pace of play and, being of a mature disposition, have tended to turn to paper recording and excel data analysis. You have got me thinking about automation and using gppositions - it strikes me that most ( all?) mobile phones can allow tracking. There must be some software in the public domain that could capture data from consenting members phones on the course - is there?

Eta. There are few Apps available that track multiple locations and send data at regular intervals by text. I would like to find one that updates an excel spreadsheet.

Most golf gps apps will also track how long the round takes. Obviously you are relying on people starting and completing their round on the device at the correct times, but the feature is there.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The club decides what are acceptable times, and also should be responsible for enforcement. As golfers, we need to stay within those guidelines. Who decides how fast you can drive? etc etc .....Someone has to. If the speed limit is 60, it doesn't matter if I think it is too slow or not....60 is how fast I will drive. If you are a farm tractor (as an example), please pull over occasionally to let traffic through. Seems reasonable.

The following words are included in an email sent to members signed up for a medal…

Target round time is under 4hrs in 3-ball medal play

Please keep up with the group in front, play 'Ready Golf' and invite faster groups through

Please record your round/finish time on your scorecard

We also ask players to enter their finish time on a board in the lobby beside the comp score entry terminal.

 

[Neilds]

The following words are included in an email sent to members signed up for a medal…

Target round time is under 4hrs in 3-ball medal play

Please keep up with the group in front, play 'Ready Golf' and invite faster groups through

Please record your round/finish time on your scorecard

We also ask players to enter their finish time on a board in the lobby beside the comp score entry terminal.

What do you do with information? Anyone can collect data but it is useless unless it it analysed and interpreted correctly. What happens to players/groups who take longer than 4 hours? Do any groups fib on their cards?

 

[pendodave]

Has anyone's club ever undertaken a proper study of pace of play? By proper I don't mean just looking at when a group started and when a group finished play...I mean actually tracking a group (or more than one group) of players movements round a golf course by such means as a GPS the like of which walkers might use?
light on where a club (which has a chronic pace of play issue)

We installed a system a couple of years ago that involved tags and little receivers dotted around the course. It never really worked for all manner of reasons and was quietly removed...

I'm not particularly impressed by the "I just like to wander about with my mates, oh dear am I in your way?" line on slow play. It's just rude imho.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What do you do with information? Anyone can collect data but it is useless unless it it analysed and interpreted correctly. What happens to players/groups who take longer than 4 hours? Do any groups fib on their cards?

Our golf manager can see where round duration starts to slip - and it’s his initiative and job to monitor durations as necessary.

Also we usually have a marshall (an esteemed and respected older member) and he certainly chivvies us along if he sees gaps between groups opening up. We normally manage to keep to under 4hrs for medals, sometimes a little over but maybe only 20minutes.

 

[bobmac]

Blimey Bob, for someone who declares themselves out really quickly when someone disagrees with you, you aren't half dragging this one out!

I don't leave a thread because people disagree with me, I leave because I've said my piece and there's no point in repeating myself.
In this thread I've asked several questions and I was hoping for some more replies

You’re moving the goalposts. Other posts you say the first 4 groups, now 2-3

Not quite right, I said 3 or 4 groups.
THEN I asked how many slow players are at your club and I got one answer from Club Champ....he said ''Three'' but they don't play together
To me that is max of 3 groups.

 

[Backache]

Back to the beginning - how can you justify an expectation that others should play at your or faster pace ?
Why is your pace correct, and anything slower wrong ?

It is not my expectation. If the course is being held up by a single group with space in front of them it is because that group are moving slower than the field as a whole . It is a shared resource and slow players should share the time appropriately . If they wish to play slowly do so at a time and manner that does not impinge on others or play at a pace that allows play to proceed freely.
If your level of golf is such that your pace is a lot slower than others then pick up at times, that's what I used to do when my handicap was higher . I will still if the course is any way busy not take stroke and distance so as not to inconvenience others though it may be in my interests to do so.

 

[Neilds]

It is not my expectation. If the course is being held up by a single group with space in front of them it is because that group are moving slower than the field as a whole . It is a shared resource and slow players should share the time appropriately . If they wish to play slowly do so at a time and manner that does not impinge on others or play at a pace that allows play to proceed freely.
If your level of golf is such that your pace is a lot slower than others then pick up at times, that's what I used to do when my handicap was higher . I will still if the course is any way busy not take stroke and distance so as not to inconvenience others though it may be in my interests to do so.

This can be a big question when you have a good round going and end up NR ing because you don't want to take S&D because you feel pressurised into not going back because of possible comments from the group (s) behind. You may be keeping up with the group in front but if the people behind see you walking back whilst they are waiting then they will blame you for all the hold ups. Sometimes you just can't win

 

[Backsticks]

It is not my expectation. If the course is being held up by a single group with space in front of them it is because that group are moving slower than the field as a whole . It is a shared resource and slow players should share the time appropriately . If they wish to play slowly do so at a time and manner that does not impinge on others or play at a pace that allows play to proceed freely.
If your level of golf is such that your pace is a lot slower than others then pick up at times, that's what I used to do when my handicap was higher . I will still if the course is any way busy not take stroke and distance so as not to inconvenience others though it may be in my interests to do so.

Why should the slower player change their schedule? If faster players dont want to be held up, go out at 5am ?

Do you expect the time for a round to be the same for a 65 shooter as for a 95 shooter ?

On the concept of the shared resource, that is entirely spurious. We do not pay membership as a timeshare on the course.

 

[Backsticks]

This can be a big question when you have a good round going and end up NR ing because you don't want to take S&D because you feel pressurised into not going back because of possible comments from the group (s) behind. You may be keeping up with the group in front but if the people behind see you walking back whilst they are waiting then they will blame you for all the hold ups. Sometimes you just can't win

Thats golf. A round may take more than you would like. Maybe someone has to walk back to the tee. Big deal. The fundamental problem is the mistaken belief by faster players that nobody should ever delay them.

 

[Backsticks]

Except it's not 30 minutes extra, try nearer 2 hours extra

Wow.

Seriously. Probably the biggest exageration in this thread of exagerations.
Who here has ever seen a group loose 9 holes ?!?!?!?!?

 

[SteveJay]

Too many bar stool juries won't consider any of this

Almost all our rounds are timed and tracked (gps buggys) not sure how much the data is used but it is collected
Buggy will tell you if you fall behind pace that day/ comp and by how many minutes
On its own it doesn't stop slow play (4 groups playing 18 at same time today) but as one of the tools it's very valuable data

A few on here would maybe suggest a further step.....if you fall behind and don't remedy it within a couple holes, the buggy could be stopped from working further. End of your round and you need to walk back to the clubhouse in disgrace

 

[bobmac]

Seriously. Probably the biggest exageration in this thread of exagerations.
Who here has ever seen a group loose 9 holes ?!?!?!?!?

The issue of slow play is closed. Golf is slow now. Nobody wants to row back on lasers, shot procedure, aimpoint, slow motion practice swings, fiddling with shot tracker watches and apps, etc. Just accept 18 holes if 5 hours minimum, and dont get upset if it edges towards 6. And enjoy the game. In the new normal.

If I want to go round in 3 hours and you say I should accept 5 hours minimum, that's 2 hours longer than I want to take which is no exaggeration, just your words.