Scotland Debate

[FairwayDodger]

The last one, if you can't see the point that's a real shame.I can't see the logic in not being independent but I've at least tried!

Oh I've tried. I've watched enough about it on telly, listened on radio, talked nonsense on here with you and others but, when it comes right down to it, independence still seems to me to be driven by a desire to get away from the English rather than anything else.

For all the powerful, uplifting, positive stuff you have (at times) posted, none of it requires us to be independent. Just go out and apply the same passion to making the UK better....

 

[Foxholer]

...what Scotland has given the world ( if anyone wants to know I'd be happy to post it )

Anyone who has perused the walls of the Cellar Bar in St Andrews's Scores Hotel should get some idea!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Oh I've tried. I've watched enough about it on telly, listened on radio, talked nonsense on here with you and others but, when it comes right down to it, independence still seems to me to be driven by a desire to get away from the English rather than anything else.

For all the powerful, uplifting, positive stuff you have (at times) posted, none of it requires us to be independent. Just go out and apply the same passion to making the UK better....

you've not tried hard enough,then.I've said it before, I love England and the English ( except sporting events).This isn;t about England, it's about Scotland.

 

[FairwayDodger]

you've not tried hard enough,then.I've said it before, I love England and the English ( except sporting events).This isn;t about England, it's about Scotland.

Didn't mean you, as you have made your own views quite clear, but that is the driver for lots of people.

 

[turkish]

Ok well the fact you "genuinely" dont know shows a tad of ignorance! I'm not too ignorant to understand why Yes voters wish to leave the Union but it is a difference of opinion.... something the yes campaigners fail to understand- don't dare try and tell me i'm wrong because I won't tell you that you are wrong.

but I'll bite and tell you why I am voting No!!!

I'm proudly Scottish, I'm proudly British. I strongly believe that our sovereign state is Great. I think in comparative terms our union is globally strong, we provide great health care, our economy is comparatively strong. I think our future as a Union looks bright. The hippy in me believes we should be bringing together nations not breaking them up- as said above a philosophical thought of bringing people together.

I believe that Westminster do look after the rest of the union but agree that for too long they have concentrated far too much on their financial hub (London) and perhaps alienated much of the union, not just other countrys but other parts of England such as the North. But I think that's what's great about a democracy; we all get to vote, we might not like who is in power but we have the chance to change that. I don't like more Lines being drawn- where does that end, North of England don't like who's in charge of westminster so let them break away, or even break it down to a city like Liverpool can they break away? what about a wee town like Bootle if they didn't vote Tory?

I also think the fact they have alieanted a lot of the union will make them sit up and take notice more effort is required throughout the UK not just London post vote!!!

I would also like to point out that myself personally am happy and generally loving my life, and have done since childhood, I genuinely do not see any reason why I would wish to change that. That is not fear factor of not wanting change, that is genuine contentment.

My sister(who is yes) says that'a fairly selfish argument when there are food banks, poverty out there but again that's what a democracy is- we should all look after our own interests and the collective good comes from it as a union.... but even with that poverty will not end, food banks will not end, charity will not end

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Didn't mean you, as you have made your own views quite clear, but that is the driver for lots of people.

That doesn't make it right, just like voting no because you hate Salmond isn't a valid reason either...and I've heard that one too, sure you have also.

 

[One Planer]

Cool.

I genuinely don't understand the hesitancy,but I don't understand why the polls are even remotely close.Use Catalunya as a reasonable comparison.They're just about to have a referendum too and they're looking at 80-90% yes vote.The ability to self determine should be automatic and the resistance to it is totally alien to me.

Salmond:Not the most popular person, although that seems to be changing somewhat.I only use his real name on here as I've been warned not use his usual moniker by admins.I really don't like him or his party.Tartan Tories is a wee bit false but just a wee bit.

Uncertainty: If all the sources of your information keep telling you something, there's a pretty good chance most folk will accept it as fact.The Scotsman,The BBC,The Daily Record,The Express,Post,Daily Mail all have something in the game, all have something in the game for the union.The neutrality that should be in the media doesn't exist.Only The Sunday Herald have officially come out as pro-yes...although that's changing as they all realise the vote is changing.If it wasn't for twitter/facebook the independence movement would be dead in the water, and to use a Scottish Football analogy, if it wasn't for twitter/facebook the issues of Rangers would never have come to light.The MSM in Scotland are generally regarded as corrupt by alot of folk.Corrupt is maybe a wee bit strong, but just a wee bit.
The independence movement is street-led, social media driven by outfits like wingsoverscotland,newsnetscotland,bella caledonia or the common weal.

It's David vs Goliath.

The other thing to consider ( and this might not go down very well, but it could be a factor): Scotland and it's people are considered proud and vocal.This is probably true of the current under 30's.But folk over a certain age?Timid folk scared of the day they'll never see.The 70'80's in Scotland with de industrialisation, heroin addiction and Thatcherism has destroyed swathes of communities to be so unconfident of themselves and their capacity they forgot ( or have never known) what Scotland has given the world ( if anyone wants to know I'd be happy to post it )

Some very good and interesting points made there :thup:

From my own, unbiased point, I don't think all the questions have properly been answered.

Currency being the main one. It comes across as all if's, but's and maybe's which, I suppose is that's all it can be before negotiation but still isn't very clear.

There has been quite a bit of posturing, from both sides of the debate, but no real concrete decisions.

Same as anything we currently have, currency is the driving force behind any country.

You only have to look back at the banking collapse a few years ago to understand the impact of a sharp financial change.

Is an independent Scotland sustainable? Not just now but after North Sea Oil (...And Gas) expire?

Could an independent Scotland's economy stand up to another financial crisis, post independence?

I, and I don't think anyone truly knows the answer to the above questions with any degree of certainty.

Would an independent Scotland have a big enough GDP to support their population and infrastructure indefinitely?

I have no idea, and I'm sure the folk running both campaigns don't now either

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

isnt Cameron involved in something far more serious right now, and that's where he should be as our PM

I was meaning wherefore will they be in two weeks following a YES. I'm thinking Cameron at least won't be having to worry too much about doing a volte-face on this. In fact it might be one of the easier decisions Westminster have to make,

 

[FairwayDodger]

That doesn't make it right, just like voting no because you hate Salmond isn't a valid reason either...and I've heard that one too, sure you have also.

Of course not.

I don't like him (or his paymaster) but that's not why I'm voting no.

Short term considerations like that, or who's in power in Westminster or how much oil there is/isn't are completely irrelevant in my eyes but, unfortunately, that's been the entire basis for debate.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Yes....from the playing fields of Eton to being responsible for the break up of the union.

Someone will not be amused.

Nae Backbone.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Ok well the fact you "genuinely" dont know shows a tad of ignorance! I'm not too ignorant to understand why Yes voters wish to leave the Union but it is a difference of opinion.... something the yes campaigners fail to understand- don't dare try and tell me i'm wrong because I won't tell you that you are wrong.

but I'll bite and tell you why I am voting No!!!

I'm proudly Scottish, I'm proudly British. I strongly believe that our sovereign state is Great. I think in comparative terms our union is globally strong, we provide great health care, our economy is comparatively strong. I think our future as a Union looks bright. The hippy in me believes we should be bringing together nations not breaking them up- as said above a philosophical thought of bringing people together.

I believe that Westminster do look after the rest of the union but agree that for too long they have concentrated far too much on their financial hub (London) and perhaps alienated much of the union, not just other countrys but other parts of England such as the North. But I think that's what's great about a democracy; we all get to vote, we might not like who is in power but we have the chance to change that. I don't like more Lines being drawn- where does that end, North of England don't like who's in charge of westminster so let them break away, or even break it down to a city like Liverpool can they break away? what about a wee town like Bootle if they didn't vote Tory?

I would also like to point out that myself personally am happy and generally loving my life, and have done since childhood, I genuinely do not see any reason why I would wish to change that. That is not fear factor of not wanting change, that is genuine contentment.

My sister(who is yes) says that'a fairly selfish argument when there are food banks, poverty out there but again that's what a democracy is- we should all look after our own interests and the collective good comes from it as a union.... but even with that poverty will not end, food banks will not end, charity will not end

Calm down dear.No need to bite, just put your point across.I might be condescending,I might be sarcastic and I might be wrong Won't stop me from putting my point across though.I do think you are wrong though and here why:

You use the word comparatively a couple of times...comparable with who?Why do feel the need to compare us to anyone?I'm really not interested in how others do things or how others fare, i'm just wanting the best for Scotland.

Our health care is excellent, both north and south of the border.There looks to be a change in direction south of the border though, with the gradual privatisation...maybe the thin end of the wedge?

As for the future of the union if we vote NO.I think most folk agree there is a pretty obvious move to the right in England?There could be a referendum on Europe soon enough.

I'm also happy enough.I make quite alot of money, go on lovely holidays turning left when I board planes sometimes, I've got a nice house, my kids are good enough people, I've got good pals and my health.If Hibs ever do win the Scottish Cup I reckon I'll be complete.But I see how folk live in Pilton and Niddrie or Possil or The Gorbals and see they live in a parallel universe to the one I inhabit.So the question thats been asked this week, if we're better together, why aren't we better together already? But if accept poverty and food banks as being part of society then I can't help with that, you are driven by alternative motives than I am.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

That doesn't make it right, just like voting no because you hate Salmond isn't a valid reason either...and I've heard that one too, sure you have also.

Woah, I'm pretty sure you've said previously that people on the street can vote, based on whatever reasoning they like! Whether that is correct or not!

Apologies if this is wrong, but I can't be bothered to trawl back many pages to find it!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Is an independent Scotland sustainable? Not just now but after North Sea Oil (...And Gas) expire?

Could an independent Scotland's economy stand up to another financial crisis, post independence?

I, and I don't think anyone truly knows the answer to the above questions with any degree of certainty.

Would an independent Scotland have a big enough GDP to support their population and infrastructure indefinitely?

Of course Scotland is sustainable, with or without oil.

Lets use Iceland as an example.

Shredded by the financial crisis, totally goosed.How are they doing today?
http://www.spiegel.de/international...f-iceland-a-case-worth-studying-a-942387.html

They jailed bankers instead of allowing them to continue their greed.

Scotland will be just fine.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Woah, I'm pretty sure you've said previously that people on the street can vote, based on whatever reasoning they like! Whether that is correct or not!

Apologies if this is wrong, but I can't be bothered to trawl back many pages to find it!

Anyone can use any reason to vote, if that's their reason they can't be wrong.That's not to say I have to agree with their reason.

 

[One Planer]

Of course Scotland is sustainable, with or without oil.

Lets use Iceland as an example.

Shredded by the financial crisis, totally goosed.How are they doing today?
http://www.spiegel.de/international...f-iceland-a-case-worth-studying-a-942387.html

They jailed bankers instead of allowing them to continue their greed.

Scotland will be just fine.

You could also look at Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal, even the good old U.S of A (Post Crisis).

Some of those are still recovering.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

You could also look at Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal, even the good old U.S of A (Post Crisis).

Some of those are still recovering.

Ireland are doing better than The UK iirc. Southern European basket case countries aren't comparable with Northern ones.

Iceland is a fair one.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Here's something that my lanky pal Irvine Welsh wrote a year or so back about Scottish/British identity

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/

 

[turkish]

Comparative to other nations across the globe. Maybe that's where we differ though- you just want the best for Scotland... I want what's best for the Union, I want what's best for the the Union & ROI, I want what's best for Europe, I believe in the collective, not the separate.

My family come from the Gorbals, you don't need to let me know about poverty... am I happy about it; No, do I think we just accept it as a society; No- we keep struggling along trying to fix. Do I think it will still be here in 100 years; Yes. and I don't think it has a lot to do with Government policies, economy or employment market in general- in General no... of course these things have an effect on this but I think a lot of it has to do with societal problems, and human nature in general. These things aren't going to change with independance.

That question makes no sense; I think we are better together because it's my opinion- there's no comparative like your question suggests as we can't guess the future- again just opinion. You can't why say "we aren't we better together already?" as rhetoric!

 

[One Planer]

Ireland are doing better than The UK iirc. Southern European basket case countries aren't comparable with Northern ones.

Iceland is a fair one.

Don't Ireland still have a €22.5 billion loan in place with the IMF?

That's still a fair old debt to have! Granted not compared to the UK, but still a sizeable debt.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Don't Ireland still have a €22.5 billion loan in place with the IMF?

That's still a fair old debt to have! Granted not compared to the UK, but still a sizeable debt.

The economy is on the up turn over there

House prices on the way back up

Half built houses being finished

Jobs being created

More and more people arriving back into the country

It's not a boom but it's getting better - a lot of people took pay cuts over the last 5 years but Ireland is recovering and starting to thrive again