Scotland Debate

[FairwayDodger]

But the frantic attempts and panic mode shows one thing: YES has all the momentum, NO are still basing their entire campaign on negativity and fear, simply because they know they're goosed on so many levels.

Having watched a couple of the debates recently I do agree with you about the momentum. Less so about negativity and fear, both sides are indulging in that, "no" struggle in the sense that it's not easy to argue for the status quo against a backdrop of high debt, austerity and disillusionment.

I'd say "yes" is winning the debate. Problem is we're having the wrong debate. I've said it before but for me it's a decision that should be based for more on philosophy, culture and identity than any short term economic gain or loss. I have no doubt that the UK will have better times ahead and also that an independent Scotland would be successful. Since this takes up about 95% of the debate I have become very frustrated listening to both sides spin it. I'm not saying there isn't a place to discuss the economics of the proposal but it has become all-consuming and tedious.

Better together talk about having "the best of both worlds" but, in a sense, it's the nats that seem to want their cake and eat it. They want independence but will keep the pound, and the head of state. They'll disarm but remain protected within a nuclear alliance. They are disingenuous when discussing certain policies as part of the independence package when they already have all the power devolved to put them into place.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Bitter Together seem to have totally messed up on this one.
Went into it 70/30 and thought all they had to do was threaten Yes supporters about the pound and it would collapse.

Interesting that since the Three Amegios issued their joint threat the polls have steadily gone towards YES.
I think at this moment the only way they can come back is to issue a joint party statement about what they would definitely offer Scotland re Devo Max.
Can't see that happening.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Wow, that actually comes across really poorly off you. You would be prepared to completely screw over the rest of the UK, so you could avoid your debts. If that's the moral basis of an iScot then it could go downhill pretty quickly.

I always think it's best to read something in its entirety prior to passing comment.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I always think it's best to read something in its entirety prior to passing comment.

Having one passing comment at the end didn't cover what I felt the rest of your post was intending!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Having one passing comment at the end didn't cover what I felt the rest of your post was intending!

The comments on pensions and debt aren't my opinion, they're the opinion of the dept of work and pension and the treasury, I was only pointing out these facts.My opinion was the last three paragraphs.

Scotland wants to pay its way, Scotland won't be held to ransom by anyone on currency,EU membership,nuclear weapons or defence.Once we vote YES, we'll see how the politicians deal with things, but I'd rather have Salmond walking into the room for me over Cameron/Milliband or Clegg.

We'll pay what we're due and we'll get what we deserve.

 

[One Planer]

Been saying for ever, no currency union=no lender of last resort=no EU.

no currency union=no sharing of debt*= devaluing of £= balance of payments skewed

* debt is owned by UK, if Scotland leaves UK, we leave debt.And don't come back saying who would lend to someone who defaulted on their loan, we're not defaulting on anything.The fact that debt is owned by The UK has been confirmed by the treasury, so it's not made up stuff, but confirmed UK govt fact.

Another one: Pensions.If Scotland votes YES, we'd have no pensions to pay.As confirmed by the Dept for work and pensions, The UK govt is liable for continuing to pay the pensions of those who have paid into the pot.An example would be Terry and June from Plymouth who retired to Spain to live our their golden years.They still get a pension, don't they?Bill from NI who's moved to Australia to be close to his grandchild, he still gets his pension from UK.So every single pensioner in Scotland would be paid their pension that they've contributed to by Westminster.

So two govt departments confirming they're liable for UK debt and continuing to pay pensioners of Scottish based pensioners. That's an incredible amount of money.

Better Together are now so desperate in the face of rising support for YES that they've had Rifkind/Lang/Forsyth have been rolled out to help.Three arch tories attempting convince Scotland of the merits of the union.Nearly as comical as Darling/Brown lecturing on the economy.

But the frantic attempts and panic mode shows one thing: YES has all the momentum, NO are still basing their entire campaign on negativity and fear, simply because they know they're goosed on so many levels.

But when all that is said, most sensible Scottish folk want to continue contributing to the financial burden we find ourselves in, even if we don't actually have to.

So it's all sweetness and light should a yes vote be posted. No debt and everything you want, pensions, defence, pound the lot?

Clearly the propaganda men earned their corn here :rofl:

Simple question for you Adi'. If it's all sweetness and light (Or have your cake and eat it), why are so many Scot's reluctant to vote yes?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Salmond has clearly stated on many occasions that Scots wish to pick up their share of the old Uk debt.

He has also implied that if rUk wish to play 'hard ball' in any further agreements, they have not chosen a good place to start from.

 

[One Planer]

Salmond has clearly stated on many occasions that Scots wish to pick up their share of the old Uk debt.

He has also implied that if rUk wish to play 'hard ball' in any further agreements, they have not chosen a good place to start from.

Neither would be in a good place to start IMO.

 

[Foxholer]

Simple question for you Adi'. If it's all sweetness and light (Or have your cake and eat it), why are so many Scot's reluctant to vote yes?

I'd strongly suspect a lot of it is fear of the unknown and/or distrust of the main protagonist! And of course, there are plenty of Pro-Union voters as well.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

So it's all sweetness and light should a yes vote be posted. No debt and everything you want, pensions, defence, pound the lot?

Clearly the propaganda men earned their corn here :rofl:

Simple question for you Adi'. If it's all sweetness and light (Or have your cake and eat it), why are so many Scot's reluctant to vote yes?

If you can point out where I said I wanted all of the above I'd appreciate it, also if I claimed sweetness and light or cake and eat it too.If not don't interpret what I say please, it's tiresome.

As for so many folk voting NO.I dunno.I could guess at a few though-

Better the devil you know
A deep love of the union
Dislike of Salmond
A fear of uncertainty
Believing the line BT have followed

 

[One Planer]

I'd strongly suspect a lot of it is fear of the unknown and/or distrust of the main protagonist! And of course, there are plenty of Pro-Union voters as well.

I suppose the point I'm making is, well, similar to one's made on here in regard to fake clubs/sites. If it's too good to be true, it usually is.

Scotland are, from the Scots I've met, very proud of their nation and heritage, and rightly so.

What I can't get my head round is that if they have the change to become an independent, self governing nation, whay are so many so hesitant?

The facts Adi has posted throughout this thread seems to show independence and as excellent opportunity. I don't understand the hesitancy?

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Neither would be in a good place to start IMO.

The starting point will be dictated equally by Westminster & Holyrood

 

[One Planer]

If you can point out where I said I wanted all of the above I'd appreciate it, also if I claimed sweetness and light or cake and eat it too.If not don't interpret what I say please, it's tiresome.

As for so many folk voting NO.I dunno.I could guess at a few though-

Better the devil you know
A deep love of the union
Dislike of Salmond
A fear of uncertainty
Believing the line BT have followed

Apologies for the earlier part of my post, it was tongue in check but didn't read that way.

As for the bit in bold, seriously?

Would people really let their dis-trust/like of Salmond cloud such an important issue?

Could you also expand on uncertainty a little? Have the Yes campaigners not made things overly clear or do you mean regarding negotiation post-yes?

 

[One Planer]

The starting point will be dictated equally by Westminster & Holyrood

Exactly my point.

When we start talking about national debt no place is good to start. if the Union were in positive equity, it would perhaps be a little easier.

 

[FairwayDodger]

If you can point out where I said I wanted all of the above I'd appreciate it, also if I claimed sweetness and light or cake and eat it too.If not don't interpret what I say please, it's tiresome.

As for so many folk voting NO.I dunno.I could guess at a few though-

Better the devil you know
A deep love of the union
Dislike of Salmond
A fear of uncertainty
Believing the line BT have followed

A philosophical belief that people should be coming together rather than pushing apart
Feeling a British identity as well as a Scottish identity
Simply not seeing any point in or need for independence

 

[One Planer]

A philosophical belief that people should be coming together rather than pushing apart
Feeling a British identity as well as a Scottish identity
Simply not seeing any point in or need for independence

Despite the positives it may bring Karen?

 

[Foxholer]

I suppose the point I'm making is, well, similar to one's made on here in regard to fake clubs/sites. If it's too good to be true, it usually is.

Scotland are, from the Scots I've met, very proud of their nation and heritage, and rightly so.

What I can't get my head round is that if they have the change to become an independent, self governing nation, whay are so many so hesitant?

The facts Adi has posted throughout this thread seems to show independence and as excellent opportunity. I don't understand the hesitancy?

Just because 95% (or whatever) of Scots are proud of their nation and heritage doesn't mean that they all want to leave the Union/be independent!

The analogy with fake clubs/sites is a very poor one imo.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

The facts Adi has posted throughout this thread seems to show independence and as excellent opportunity. I don't understand the hesitancy?

Apologies for the earlier part of my post, it was tongue in check but didn't read that way.

As for the bit in bold, seriously?

Would people really let their dis-trust/like of Salmond cloud such an important issue?

Could you also expand on uncertainty a little? Have the Yes campaigners not made things overly clear or do you mean regarding negotiation post-yes?

Cool.

I genuinely don't understand the hesitancy,but I don't understand why the polls are even remotely close.Use Catalunya as a reasonable comparison.They're just about to have a referendum too and they're looking at 80-90% yes vote.The ability to self determine should be automatic and the resistance to it is totally alien to me.

Salmond:Not the most popular person, although that seems to be changing somewhat.I only use his real name on here as I've been warned not use his usual moniker by admins.I really don't like him or his party.Tartan Tories is a wee bit false but just a wee bit.

Uncertainty: If all the sources of your information keep telling you something, there's a pretty good chance most folk will accept it as fact.The Scotsman,The BBC,The Daily Record,The Express,Post,Daily Mail all have something in the game, all have something in the game for the union.The neutrality that should be in the media doesn't exist.Only The Sunday Herald have officially come out as pro-yes...although that's changing as they all realise the vote is changing.If it wasn't for twitter/facebook the independence movement would be dead in the water, and to use a Scottish Football analogy, if it wasn't for twitter/facebook the issues of Rangers would never have come to light.The MSM in Scotland are generally regarded as corrupt by alot of folk.Corrupt is maybe a wee bit strong, but just a wee bit.
The independence movement is street-led, social media driven by outfits like wingsoverscotland,newsnetscotland,bella caledonia or the common weal.

It's David vs Goliath.

The other thing to consider ( and this might not go down very well, but it could be a factor): Scotland and it's people are considered proud and vocal.This is probably true of the current under 30's.But folk over a certain age?Timid folk scared of the day they'll never see.The 70'80's in Scotland with de industrialisation, heroin addiction and Thatcherism has destroyed swathes of communities to be so unconfident of themselves and their capacity they forgot ( or have never known) what Scotland has given the world ( if anyone wants to know I'd be happy to post it )

 

[Adi2Dassler]

A philosophical belief that people should be coming together rather than pushing apart
Feeling a British identity as well as a Scottish identity
Simply not seeing any point in or need for independence

All reasonable suggestions as possible factors.

You'll always be British, a point I never tire of making...fracking or no fracking, we'll always be British
I'm not pushing apart from anyone, I want to be a good neighbour, one that accepts reponsibilty for its actions and works well for each others gains.
The last one, if you can't see the point that's a real shame.I can't see the logic in not being independent but I've at least tried!

 

[FairwayDodger]

Despite the positives it may bring Karen?

That's what I don't understand... Even though the whole debate is (wrongly) framed around economics, I don't see any positives that either aren't currently or couldn't be in future achieved within the UK.

To me, it just seems we'd be swapping one government for another. Don't see the point, really don't.