Scotland Debate

[CMAC]

Alex Salmond is -once again - clutching at straws by saying Cameron 'told' Obama to interject in the Independence debate. I don't think you 'tell' the most powerful leader on the planet what to do.

I'd like to see a live debate with Salmond and Darling as they are the main leaders of each campaign

 

[CMAC]

100 days to go and I am still totally undecided which way to vote.

I think about 750,000 Scots are in the same frame of mind.

havent got the stats, is that 13% of the population or thereabouts?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Pleasing to hear Darling tell the voters that all three parties supporting BT are now promising 'further powers' for the Scottish Parliament following a NO vote.

Interesting this change as Devo Max is not on the agenda - well it was rejected by Cameron for the referendum - have Cameron and Osborne validated these 'promises'? So notwithstanding that it seems that Scots voters are being promised things that BT can't guarantee - just like what BT accuse the YES campaign of doing - BT now seem to have a crystal ball on what the status quo might morph into. So BT need to tell us how these promises will impact upon the status quo - so including such as the Barnett formula funding, setting of interest rates etc.

BT seem to have move from the 'certainty' of the status quo i.e. you know what you are voting for when you vote NO - to a position when BT can no longer state that as they promise thing they cannot guarantee or have yet to define. Let's see what BT say about this later today.

 

[CMAC]

Pleasing to hear Darling tell the voters that all three parties supporting BT are now promising 'further powers' for the Scottish Parliament following a NO vote.

Interesting this change as Devo Max is not on the agenda - well it was rejected by Cameron for the referendum - have Cameron and Osborne validated these 'promises'? So notwithstanding that it seems that Scots voters are being promised things that BT can't guarantee - just like what BT accuse the YES campaign of doing - BT now seem to have a crystal ball on what the status quo might morph into. So BT need to tell us how these promises will impact upon the status quo - so including such as the Barnett formula funding, setting of interest rates etc.

BT seem to have move from the 'certainty' of the status quo i.e. you know what you are voting for when you vote NO - to a position when BT can no longer state that as they promise thing they cannot guarantee or have yet to define. Let's see what BT say about this later today.

Whilst I agree it looks more devo max type promises now, how do you know they cannot guarantee the promises they make in writing?

 

[ger147]

Whilst I agree it looks more devo max type promises now, how do you know they cannot guarantee the promises they make in writing?

BT are not the government just now and will not be the next government after the next general election so any future government are not bound by anything Alistair Darling comes out with during the Scottish referendum debate.

 

[Val]

BT are not the government just now and will not be the next government after the next general election so any future government are not bound by anything Alistair Darling comes out with during the Scottish referendum debate.

Very true however BT are in a position to show what the collective parties of the UK can offer post NO which will be up to the current/next government to decide on post NO. Their is no guarantee SNP (although I agree it's likely) would be the first Scottish government, what is more certain is that the BT political supporters are in a better position to deliver promises than the SNP are if the vote is in either campaigns favour, the YES campaign post YES have a lot of major obstacles to get over before they can deliver on their promes (currency union, EU membership etc etc)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Very true however BT are in a position to show what the collective parties of the UK can offer post NO which will be up to the current/next government to decide on post NO. Their is no guarantee SNP (although I agree it's likely) would be the first Scottish government, what is more certain is that the BT political supporters are in a better position to deliver promises than the SNP are if the vote is in either campaigns favour, the YES campaign post YES have a lot of major obstacles to get over before they can deliver on their promes (currency union, EU membership etc etc)

What are BT doing promising things that they have zero ability to deliver - why do they not just stick with 'delivering' the status quo? Are they not just muddying the waters on their side by making such 'promises' when voters know that it woulds be up to Westminster what, if any, extra powers Holyrood might get. And in BT indirectly highlighting that fact, does that not play directly into the hands of the YES campaign?

 

[DCB]

Thank goodness we've only got another 100 days of this

 

[ger147]

Very true however BT are in a position to show what the collective parties of the UK can offer post NO which will be up to the current/next government to decide on post NO. Their is no guarantee SNP (although I agree it's likely) would be the first Scottish government, what is more certain is that the BT political supporters are in a better position to deliver promises than the SNP are if the vote is in either campaigns favour, the YES campaign post YES have a lot of major obstacles to get over before they can deliver on their promes (currency union, EU membership etc etc)

I was simply responding to the point about BT making promises i.e. they will absolutely NOT nor ever will be in a position to deliver them or be held accountable for them, as logically they should disappear after the vote as their reason for existence will itself have ceased to exist.

If there is a Yes vote, I agree that the current and next Scottish government will have an awful lot of work to do to try and deliver against any promises they have made but Alistair Darling will no doubt be swanning around the House of Lords after the vote no matter the outcome.

 

[ger147]

Thank goodness we've only got another 100 days of this

Here, here!!

 

[JamPal]

Thank goodness we've only got another 100 days of this

Amen. I run a very busy forum (hifiwigwam.com) and this debate has sent us all potty, especially the mod team.

For me, I hope the union remains intact, I think that will be better for Scotland and for the rest of the UK in the long run. However, if the indies are in majority we will just have to man up and take the rejection and move on from it.

 

[Val]

What are BT doing promising things that they have zero ability to deliver - why do they not just stick with 'delivering' the status quo? Are they not just muddying the waters on their side by making such 'promises' when voters know that it woulds be up to Westminster what, if any, extra powers Holyrood might get. And in BT indirectly highlighting that fact, does that not play directly into the hands of the YES campaign?

Why have they zero ability in delivering?

 

[Val]

I was simply responding to the point about BT making promises i.e. they will absolutely NOT nor ever will be in a position to deliver them or be held accountable for them, as logically they should disappear after the vote as their reason for existence will itself have ceased to exist.

If there is a Yes vote, I agree that the current and next Scottish government will have an awful lot of work to do to try and deliver against any promises they have made but Alistair Darling will no doubt be swanning around the House of Lords after the vote no matter the outcome.

I'll ask you too, why will they never be in a position to deliver the promises?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well hopefully with BT trying to be +ve and coming out of the closet with 'future powers' for Holyrood statements then voters in Scotland will have a choice of uncertainties. Will be interesting to hear how BT play 'new tax raising powers' off against 'Barnett formula funding'. Because you can't have the former unless you reduce or remove the latter.

 

[ger147]

I'll ask you too, why will they never be in a position to deliver the promises?

BT are not and never will be the government. More powers for Holyrood can only be delivered by the government in Westminster.

 

[Val]

Well hopefully with BT trying to be +ve and coming out of the closet with 'future powers' for Holyrood statements then voters in Scotland will have a choice of uncertainties. Will be interesting to hear how BT play 'new tax raising powers' off against 'Barnett formula funding'. Because you can't have the former unless you reduce or remove the latter.

If this is aimed at me, it doesn't answer my question. Why do they "have zero ability to deliver"?

 

[Foxholer]

Amen. I run a very busy forum (hifiwigwam.com) and this debate has sent us all potty, especially the mod team.

This thread has been a fantastic credit to the level-headedness of all participants imo! Can't actually remember any mod-ing activity being required - or maybe i missed it! I doubt any other thread where opinions can be so 'opposite' would go nearly 2500 posts without a lot of moderation! Long (well, 100 days or so) may it continue!

 

[Val]

BT are not and never will be the government. More powers for Holyrood can only be delivered by the government in Westminster.

The BT campaign has plenty of serving government ministers who can deliver, Darling is just a front man.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'll ask you too, why will they never be in a position to deliver the promises?

Because (stating the obvious) the BT Campaign isn't Westminster and we haven't heard anything from Cameron and Osborne backing up the BT statements - especially given they rejected giving the Scottish electorate the choice of Devo Max in the referendum. And Labour? LibDems? UKIP? What are their policies in respect of moving towards devo max?

 

[ger147]

The BT campaign has plenty of serving government ministers who can deliver, Darling is just a front man.

BT cannot deliver, only the government can, it's as simple as that.