Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
It’s very simple
You play gimmies , the format is no longer acceptable competition for WHS
They can’t force you to remove gimmies - that’s up to you all as bunch
Add in you prob play a bit of a social matchplay as well
Roll Up Group Handicaps
- Thread starter HomerJSimpson
- Start date
You play gimmies , the format is no longer acceptable competition for WHS
They can’t force you to remove gimmies - that’s up to you all as bunch
Add in you prob play a bit of a social matchplay as well
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Well if that is the case then OK. But an organized event; tee times reserved by the club; prize money...looks like a competition to me.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Yes we do.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Organised by a bunch members for a bit of fun
If the club organised the roll up then they could prob determine the rules
'They' are trying to force you to though. They have been caught between two stools, play by the US handicapping system, but also, play by British rules. They have been hoisted by their own petard. And worse, dont seem to have any idea how to square the circle and solve the contradiction.
Backache
Assistant Pro
We play gimmees etc, it's for fun but the 'pots' are miniscule buying a couple of drinks will cost you far more than you will win.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
The club reserves the tee times for us. If it doesn't require us to submit cards then that's OK - but I've a feeling they might. Our Thursday rollup has reserved tee times and some time ago were sent down that route - they have complied and so have abandoned gimmes and now submit their cards.
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They submit.
You will submit.
We all will submit.
Resistance is futule.
You will be assimilated.
You are missing the point or choosing to ignore it for the point of arguing - the EGU directive which my club is now following states that if a roll up is seen as an organised group (which we are) then they should be playing to the rule of golf including holing out and not operating a roll up handicap (which we've stopped). Cards should be put in and where that doesn't happen on a regular basis the club will try and educate and persuade players to do so. I raised this point to you in post #20 and post #79 also summed up the reasoning why gimmees aren't allowed and it should be treated as a comp
2blue
Journeyman Pro
I'd say Well Done to a set of responsible golfers!! Sadly some appear to be just beyond help.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
And you are missing the point
What you do in your social golf groups is up
When you tee up with a bunch regardless of what you play for outside any organised club comps you can play how you want
EG don’t have the power to do anything to stop that and 99.9% of clubs will just let them members play their social golf how they want
Doesn’t matter how much directives or emails etc - won’t change a thing
As I suspected ignoring important parts for the sake of arguing and maintaining a position
For ease I have copied and pasted post #79 - it is very clear and a directive from EG. My club also attended an EG workshop hence the decision to treat our roll up as an organised event (we are a recognised roll up and as such participate with a team in the clubs annual roll up group torunament each summer where each roll up including weekdays and weekends put a side in and it is better ball stableford to decide the winner). We are one of the last groups to start putting cards in as we were operating a roll up handicap system which has now been vetoed. It is abundantly clear that clubs and EG insist on playing fully to the rules of golf and therefore no gimmees and cards to count. It isn't hard to understand
I attended an EG Workshop near Gloucester last week. Their firmly expressed view was that a Club has an obligation to treat Roll Ups / Swindles as Competitions and to ensure that the scores are recorded on WHS. Also that linked to this there can be only One Handicap for each Golfer. They expressed the view that if a Club Handicaps and Competitions Committee fails to "police" this issue it is failing in it`s duties under WHS.
And almost all of these events are played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf - so they are Competitions that are Acceptable for Handicapping. They should therefore be a part of the Competitors "Scoring History" for WHS purposes in the view of EG. They were very clear that failure to address this aspect of Club Golf was aiding and abetting handicap manipulation.
This is going to be "news" to many golfers and educating everyone to a "new normal" isn`t going to be easy but it is definitely what EG want us to all be doing.
I realise that this "Post" goes against many of the comments in this thread - but it is definitely where EG are coming from and in time may cause serious issues for Clubs who fail to follow the EG lead.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Again - how are EG going to force it
How are the club going to force it
The club and players may have an “obligation”
But they can’t force players to be obligated during their social golf
Regurgitating the rules or guidelines won’t matter to 99% of the golfers - they won’t care
How are the club going to force it
The club and players may have an “obligation”
But they can’t force players to be obligated during their social golf
Regurgitating the rules or guidelines won’t matter to 99% of the golfers - they won’t care
AussieKB
Well-known member
And they said WHS was the be all and end all.....no extra work for clubs etc.....
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Accepting that my group of members may choose to ignore any exhortations and education coming from the club on the matter and carry on regardless, what the club can very easily do is cancel the block reservation they give us…we then have to organise to grab tee times as best we can when tee booking opens. Whilst we have managed that pretty well over the winter period just gone, when the block reservation was temporarily rescinded, it has undoubtably been a faff trying to book tee times for up to 40 of us - and the demand for tee times during the spring and summer months will be higher - making it tougher.
Anyway…I believe there is now a fairly wide understanding (much wider than a year ago) in the group that holing out and handing in our rollup cards is not the end of the world, indeed is prob a rather good thing. We’ll see.
I’ll add. There is pressure on the club from the wider membership to cancel the roll up block reservation. By making it a competition…cards handed in, that pressure may fall as other members may not want to be handing in their card. In a way by complying the rollup would protect the reservation. It’ll be up to us…the pressure on the club to cancel the reservation won’t go away unless we change.
Or maybe we just change our competition format to a bowmaker rather than individual stableford.
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Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Yep the club can remove your roll up times which would of course annoy members even more
And having to organise your own tee times is prob what a good amount of us already do anyway
Sometimes the governing bodies need to understand that
We are social amateurs playing with our mates every week for mainly a bit of social fun , bit of competitive edge at times but it’s social golf for us all - it’s not our living , it’s supposed to be enjoyable
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I personally think it's pie in the sky talk, completely unenforceable, but you do seem quite rattled by it. I seriously doubt anybody's going to have their handicap suspended by this. Is a club really going to suspend the handicaps of an entire roll-up group and risk an exodus of members? I don't see it myself.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Question for handicap secretaries or those with a committee role...
Can a club suspend a member's handicap if they do not comply with a firmly set out club directive in respect of such as, oh I don't know - let's say - handing in a rollup card for WHS purposes.
Given waiting lists for membership in my part of the world I suggest that there would not be any great exodus of members if such a requirement was imposed on rollups.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
the HC committee etc can suspend someone’s HC for a number of reasons
If they dictated to their members and within that was the “punishment” for not carry out the wish then it’s possible
But I suspect there were be very minimal of any HC committee that would demand cards to be submitted from a member organised swindle
They know the backlash that would create from its own members
Whereditgo
Journeyman Pro
Isn't the real issue about Roll up's, Swindles etc having a system in place to further handicap previous winners of the 'pot'? And E.G. determining that that equates to having 2 handicaps!
Playing to the rules of golf, holing out etc and putting a card in really shouldn't be a problem.
Someone ( maybe Ori?) suggested earlier that everyone play off their official handicap, submit their cards and last weeks winner (for e.g.) is deducted the 'penalty for excellence adjustment' post round. No one in officialdom is any the wiser.
Playing to the rules of golf, holing out etc and putting a card in really shouldn't be a problem.
Someone ( maybe Ori?) suggested earlier that everyone play off their official handicap, submit their cards and last weeks winner (for e.g.) is deducted the 'penalty for excellence adjustment' post round. No one in officialdom is any the wiser.
