Roll Back Discussion

[Lord Tyrion]

Again how many courses do you know that have dramatically changed their footprint that much ? None that I can think of in my area ? When I think of the top 100 courses I don’t see many changing , even the open courses not many changing that much.

It doesn’t seem to much of an issue for 99% or the courses

This is not about local courses, that should be pretty obvious. Even top 100 courses are not changing the tees for the likes of club players, it's about the elite golfer. We don't necessarily see it but we hear it on commentary, this tee box has gone back 20yds, 30yds etc. If we go to play an Open course we don't play off the tournament tees. You might play off the whites but you don't go back further into the distance where the Open tees are placed.

Haven't they altered a number at Augusta to add more length? This is why it is not that big of a deal to me, it is about tournament golf only, not recreational golf.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This is not about local courses, that should be pretty obvious. Even top 100 courses are not changing the tees for the likes of club players, it's about the elite golfer. We don't necessarily see it but we hear it on commentary, this tee box has gone back 20yds, 30yds etc. Haven't they altered a number at Augusta to add more length? This is why it is not that big of a deal to me, it is about tournament golf only, not recreational golf.

So it’s prob not even a handful of courses that are extending

And is there not a chance that some holes become better with some tees further back giving them options of which tee to use

Beyond Augusta how many are really going that far ? Prob beyond a bare minimum - so is it that much of an issue

 

[IanM]

This is not about local courses.
Haven't they altered a number at Augusta to add more length? This is why it is not that big of a deal to me, it is about tournament golf only, not recreational golf.

Masters 2000. 6985 yards
Masters 2023. 7545 yards

And a similar theme at anywhere looking to stay on the circuit.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

So it’s prob not even a handful of courses that are extending

And is there not a chance that some holes become better with some tees further back giving them options of which tee to use

Beyond Augusta how many are really going that far ? Prob beyond a bare minimum - so is it that much of an issue

I don't keep records so no idea really. I do remember a spell of courses 'Tiger Proofing' themselves so some must have. Best way, for anyone that interested, is to check courses on tour from 1970, 1990, 2010, 2023 and see what their lengths are. That would be interesting to see.

As to your last point, it's clearly enough of an issue for golf to have been fixated with this for the last 10-20 years. For past generations of players, Nicklaus being one, Faldo another, to talk about the need for this to happen. Enough for the two governing rules bodies to investigate and make these recommendations, knowing the fuss it would cause. So, yes, it must be that much of an issue.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Masters 2000. 6985 yards
Masters 2023. 7545 yards

And a similar theme at anywhere looking to stay on the circuit.

I wont amend my previous post but blimey, that is a good starting point in terms of evidence

 

[Slab]

Plus all the course openings in the last 10-20 years that have likely taken a footprint larger than they otherwise would have, with the knock-on financial and environmental impact



I'm reminded when I look at many of the courses in folks signatures that 6000yards was a pretty good length and is no doubt still 100% perfectly suitable for club golf, but on a newer course build it wouldn't cut it as the length for the senior tees (to use their old name)

 

[Swango1980]

Plus all the course openings in the last 10-20 years that have likely taken a footprint larger than they otherwise would have, with the knock-on financial and environmental impact



I'm reminded when I look at many of the courses in folks signatures that 6000yards was a pretty good length and is no doubt still 100% perfectly suitable for club golf, but on a newer course build it wouldn't cut it as the length for the senior tees (to use their old name)

If we are talking about venues that host the top professional tournaments, I wonder if we can rule out the financial aspect? Surely the amount of money in the game of golf in 2023 is monumental compared to the money that was in the game in 2020, 1980, etc? These venues are surely benefiting hugely when they host such prestigious events? Do they even have to foot the bill for 100% of course changes, or do the leading tours help fund certain changes, if they desire to have their events there?

Bigger hitting professional golfers do not seem to have been an obstacle to the growth of golf. If anything, it makes golf look like a much more athletic sport, not just a bunch of middle aged men in cardigans patting a ball round a park. It makes golf look "cooler" (or whatever word you'd like to use) to sports fans.

Not sure about the environmental impact. Although, I'm sure this has to be scrutinised anytime planning permission is sought. I wonder if creating a bit more open land to add a few hundred yards to a golf course is more damaging to the environment that selling it, and building a block of flats?

 

[Imurg]

Masters 2000. 6985 yards
Masters 2023. 7545 yards

And a similar theme at anywhere looking to stay on the circuit.

They moved the 17th tee so far back on the Old Course that it wasn't actually on the Old Course.....

 

[Slab]

If we are talking about venues that host the top professional tournaments, I wonder if we can rule out the financial aspect? Surely the amount of money in the game of golf in 2023 is monumental compared to the money that was in the game in 2020, 1980, etc? These venues are surely benefiting hugely when they host such prestigious events? Do they even have to foot the bill for 100% of course changes, or do the leading tours help fund certain changes, if they desire to have their events there?

Bigger hitting professional golfers do not seem to have been an obstacle to the growth of golf. If anything, it makes golf look like a much more athletic sport, not just a bunch of middle aged men in cardigans patting a ball round a park. It makes golf look "cooler" (or whatever word you'd like to use) to sports fans.

Not sure about the environmental impact. Although, I'm sure this has to be scrutinised anytime planning permission is sought. I wonder if creating a bit more open land to add a few hundred yards to a golf course is more damaging to the environment that selling it, and building a block of flats?

No not limited to top pro courses, just new courses that aren't shoehorned into a limited space

 

[pendodave]

I don't keep records so no idea really. I do remember a spell of courses 'Tiger Proofing' themselves so some must have. Best way, for anyone that interested, is to check courses on tour from 1970, 1990, 2010, 2023 and see what their lengths are. That would be interesting to see.

As to your last point, it's clearly enough of an issue for golf to have been fixated with this for the last 10-20 years. For past generations of players, Nicklaus being one, Faldo another, to talk about the need for this to happen. Enough for the two governing rules bodies to investigate and make these recommendations, knowing the fuss it would cause. So, yes, it must be that much of an issue.

Think how much time, trouble and money the governing bodies could have saved by just asking a bunch of choppers .Thats the thing that upsets me the most about all this....

 

[IanM]

They moved the 17th tee so far back on the Old Course that it wasn't actually on the Old Course.....

On the other side of the road now, won't be long before the 1st tee is up by the Monument and you drive over the Clubhouse! Places like Sunningdale are now to short to hold Tour Events.

I think the distance is less of an issue if there is some jeopardy for missing the fairway. Too often they are happy to gouge a wedge out onto the green and it makes no difference. If they were heading back to the tee after a lost ball, there would be a different approach!!

 

[Swango1980]

No not limited to top pro courses, just new courses that aren't shoehorned into a limited space

But, I'm assuming the latest announcement will have no bearing on these courses, and new courses opening anyway? The equipment for amateurs isn't being rolled back?

 

[Slab]

But, I'm assuming the latest announcement will have no bearing on these courses, and new courses opening anyway? The equipment for amateurs isn't being rolled back?

If you build it they will come...

I think its rare for a course to be purpose built for a top pro event.
Courses are opening all the time that are designed and built in the hope/aspiration/intent that elite and pro events might be tempted down the line... but in the meantime & primarily they are all very much golf clubs for amateurs

 

[Swango1980]

If you build it they will come...

I think its rare for a course to be purpose built for a top pro event.
Courses are opening all the time that are designed and built in the hope/aspiration/intent that elite and pro events might be tempted down the line... but in the meantime & primarily they are all very much golf clubs for amateurs

Maybe we need a spin off game, where we could play with balls like ping pong or squash balls. We could have 18 holes in the space not much bigger than a football pitch

 

[sweaty sock]

Maybe we need a spin off game, where we could play with balls like ping pong or squash balls. We could have 18 holes in the space not much bigger than a football pitch

The next logical step is no course at all. Just a screen a trackman and one of those pneumatic indoor greens. 18th at St Andrews but 600 yards long you say, easy 1 line of code.

I think this is what the tiger and rory thing is going to be....

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If you build it they will come...

I think its rare for a course to be purpose built for a top pro event.
Courses are opening all the time that are designed and built in the hope/aspiration/intent that elite and pro events might be tempted down the line... but in the meantime & primarily they are all very much golf clubs for amateurs

Not sure how many courses have been built recently- but the likes of Celtic Manor purpose built for the Ryder Cup , the likes of JCB and Centurion built for Tour events in mind

But there aren’t that many new courses as such being opened up on a regular occurrence

Even when new courses are built they have multiple tees built to factor in the different levels of players

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Maybe we need a spin off game, where we could play with balls like ping pong or squash balls. We could have 18 holes in the space not much bigger than a football pitch

There's a course down in Devon, called Caymen golf, Played it a few times when down that way, balls only go 25% of a real golf ball, so the course only takes up small area

 

[wjemather]

Maybe we need a spin off game, where we could play with balls like ping pong or squash balls. We could have 18 holes in the space not much bigger than a football pitch

I know you're just joking, but this is kind of the point. No other sport has repeatedly made the playing area bigger in order to accommodate advances in equipment and physical performance - they impose limits on equipment to keep the game within the playing area. Why does golf seem to have such a problem with doing this?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I know you're just joking, but this is kind of the point. No other sport has repeatedly made the playing area bigger in order to accommodate advances in equipment and physical performance - they impose limits on equipment to keep the game within the playing area. Why does golf seem to have such a problem with doing this?

Sorry but what other sports have the flexibility to expand the area the game is played in ?

most of them are restricted by the stadium built around the field or the distance someone needs to go

Other sports just allow the sport to get better with advances in equipment and some apply restrictions on equipment

 

[Swango1980]

I know you're just joking, but this is kind of the point. No other sport has repeatedly made the playing area bigger in order to accommodate advances in equipment and physical performance - they impose limits on equipment to keep the game within the playing area. Why does golf seem to have such a problem with doing this?

Well, it is the nature of the game. Most other sports, you continually use the same area as you play the game. Even motorsport, you do multiple laps on the same track.

Whereas, with golf, you technically only use each area once, as you travel around the playing area (wayward shots excluded). Hence why the playing area is so much bigger than any other sport I can think of the top of my head.

However, even if they take a few yards off the distance a golf ball will travel, what difference does it really make to golf courses? You will still get golf courses in very tight spaces, and others expanded over many many acres. It's one of the beauties of golf, that every course is very very different.