Roll Back Discussion

[Oddsocks]

All roped areas are deemed O.B.

Let’s see them start trying to keep it in play like us mortals.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Here's some random fellas from the times when golf balls were made out of hard boiled sheep testicles, and the clubheads were carved from the tusks of a mammoth.

560 yard par 5, they won't be getting on there in 2 - Oh no...

Seve Thats Magical - YouTube

 

[Backsticks]

Sorry re read it - so how will we be in a worse position in 30 years ?

42 years ago the average distance driving was 280 yards , last year it was 299 yards ( on tour )

So in 40 years it’s increased by 20 yards

In 1997 Daly was the first to be going over 300 yards average during the season

A lot of the more modern technology has been about “forgiveness” - keeping the ball straighter etc

Is it really been that damaging to the sport ?

How many people have stopped or given up because some pros hit the ball a little bit further ?

Do the big hitters dominate the game ?

Or is it all down to perception?

BDC goes hulk - wins a few comps but doesn’t dominate yet people start to complain ?

It’s all a nonsense - sports evolve , players improve themselves physically, the better players with better technique and physically stronger hit the ball further - not because of the ball

Many questions ! Many answers !

42 years ago it was 256 not 280. The majority of the stretch to 299 came from equipment improvement.

The risk is that some other technological advance would have driven it significantly beyond 300. (Forgiveness is just a marketing construct once the COR limit was imposed (drivers do not hit the ball further since that step) - the acceptance of the term as a meaningful factor in golf club performance is a terrific triumph of the power of advertising).

It hasnt been damaging to the sport in interest or participation. But it has distorted the balance of skills. Its not a question of big hitters dominating, but is more nuanced than that. It is an multi factored equation, and while one can have an opinion on whether the change in the balance of factors makes golf better, worse, or the same, it is beyond question that the balance has tilted in favour of rewarding distance more than it did previously. Some mistakenly cite lines such as long golfers always had an advantage, or, length itself is a skill to be rewarded. All correct. But that misses the point : how much do we want length in itself to determine the best score. The authorities have decided - and ignore the lazy and cynical lines about bored committee men, or dinosaurs wanting to turn back the clock to a halcyon past - that the balance has either gone too far, or far enough. And motivated for the good of the game, have proposed a limit.

It is not down to perception. The data and analysis is very extensive and the matter has been studied in great detail. Only a guess, but I would say much of the discussion centred on legal matters. The 460 and 0.83 I would say are regretted now their true effectiveness has been seen. The ball was a simpler fix.

BDC was not a factor in this. Anyone thinking this was a knee jerk reaction has not been following the topic. It has been coming for the last 10 years. If anything, it was too slow to come.

Sports do evolve. But do not conflate evolution with improvement. In this case some of the evolution took from the game. This may have restored some of the loss. At worst, it has arrested further deterioration.

 

[Jason.H]

Just tape it , it’s only 90mins then.

what’s a tape?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Well Bryson isn't enamoured with the idea, and it seems LIV are happy to post his views on their own website, so that might imply where they are going to go with any rule changes...

For this reason, it won't happen. There's no way the PGAT, DPWT etc will want the top manufacturers pumping their R&D money into the guys at LIV - assuming they choose to carry on with the ball regs as they are currently.

DECHAMBEAU CALLS GOLF BALL ROLLBACK PROPOSAL 'ATROCIOUS' | LIV Golf

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Well Bryson isn't enamoured with the idea, and it seems LIV are happy to post his views on their own website, so that might imply where they are going to go with any rule changes...

For this reason, it won't happen. There's no way the PGAT, DPWT etc will want the top manufacturers pumping their R&D money into the guys at LIV - assuming they choose to carry on with the ball regs as they are currently.

DECHAMBEAU CALLS GOLF BALL ROLLBACK PROPOSAL 'ATROCIOUS' | LIV Golf

Why would any of the other tours care what Liv does?

 

[Backsticks]

Well Bryson isn't enamoured with the idea, and it seems LIV are happy to post his views on their own website, so that might imply where they are going to go with any rule changes...

For this reason, it won't happen. There's no way the PGAT, DPWT etc will want the top manufacturers pumping their R&D money into the guys at LIV - assuming they choose to carry on with the ball regs as they are currently.

DECHAMBEAU CALLS GOLF BALL ROLLBACK PROPOSAL 'ATROCIOUS' | LIV Golf

I suppose he mustn't really see LIV as 'elite golf'...
Its what many have been suggesting all along...

 

[Mel Smooth]

Why would any of the other tours care what Liv does?

Yeah, no idea, if only there was a teeny shred of evidence that any of the other tours care what LIV does....

 

[Slab]

Can’t really see the big fuss its created

R&A/USGA said ‘fellas there will be a new MLR available for use in elite events, so if you plan on running an elite event at a particular course and you think it’ll be useful to you, crack on and use it. You can expect that (R&A/USGA) we’ll have need of it on occasion for the tournaments we run
i.e If the course that week is suitable/big enough stick with ball A, if it’s not you might want to use the MLR & ball B

The ball manufactures are the ones impacted most but I guess as a start point they’ll still have their research for their 2001 ball in a drawer somewhere
Existing Pro’s will quickly adapt to using one of two balls depending on where they are playing
There’s zero chance that any emerging AMs will turn up at their first pro/elite event and face a ball they’ve never hit before
A clear process will be in place in plenty of time for qualifying tournaments for national Opens i.e US Open

Are those ‘Calm Down’ signs still fashionable

 

[Crazyface]

A roll back on the prices of the equipment would be a better idea.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

For me it’s solving a problem that doesn’t exist.

Golf has changed over the years, but show me a sport that hasn’t? Long hitters will always have an advantage, and does it really matter what a professional score is compared to par?

However, if it is to be introduced, I would want it to apply to everyone, not just the top level.

 

[Slab]

For me it’s solving a problem that doesn’t exist.

Golf has changed over the years, but show me a sport that hasn’t? Long hitters will always have an advantage, and does it really matter what a professional score is compared to par?

However, if it is to be introduced, I would want it to apply to everyone, not just the top level.

At face value I can understand why but then I think about the differences in elite/pro golf and club golf, i.e one ball rule, 4 days of LCP when someone drops water bottle on the fairway, free equipment etc etc then all the differences I don't even know about

I'd guess too the 'elite' pro-v ball will be on-sale, so those club golfers that want to mirror the experience of pro's can still do it
(& I'd wager the diff between elite pro-v and club pro-v will be no different to current performances differences between current prov1's and current top-flite/lake balls etc so there's no new advantage/disadvantage over the rest of the monthly medal field)

I think I can also say with near certainty that despite initial reaction from Titleist, by the time it comes round all those clever little marketing departments will have a field day promoting the 'club' (boosted!) version of the xyz elite ball

 

[Backsticks]

For me it’s solving a problem that doesn’t exist.

Golf has changed over the years, but show me a sport that hasn’t? Long hitters will always have an advantage, and does it really matter what a professional score is compared to par?

However, if it is to be introduced, I would want it to apply to everyone, not just the top level.

Yes, sports change. But we want them to change for the better, not worse.

Yes, again, long hitters always had an advantage. Its not about that. Its about how much of an advantage.

The isse isnt about their score relative to par - thats why limits like, just grow the rough, no ball spotters for pros, etc - are not a fix. Its about the character of the game, and the mix of shots and skills.

Agree with you on the one ball for all though. But like the 0.83, or 1.68" ball adoption here, it will probably go that way in time. The trend recently has very much been for rules changes to be local rules first, general rules later.

 

[BubbaP]

Is it tomorrow yet?

 

[Wabinez]

The trend recently has very much been for rules changes to be local rules first, general rules later.

This is the definite long game I think.

Even this 5 month 'consultation', I half wonder if ball manufacturers would rather opt for roll back across the lot, rather than just develop a standalone ball for the tours. Amateurs will, very likely, not see any difference whatsoever, even with a rolled back ball. The NLU 'emergency' pod has an interview with Mike Whan to talk about the changes etc, and he comes across quite well.

 

[sweaty sock]

This is the definite long game I think.

Even this 5 month 'consultation', I half wonder if ball manufacturers would rather opt for roll back across the lot, rather than just develop a standalone ball for the tours. Amateurs will, very likely, not see any difference whatsoever, even with a rolled back ball. The NLU 'emergency' pod has an interview with Mike Whan to talk about the changes etc, and he comes across quite well.

Titleist already do this plenty. The price of pro v1s covers a lot of specialist products just for tour players...

 

[Swango1980]

Why would any of the other tours care what Liv does?

In all fairness, I think a lot of excitement in golf comes with big hitting. Personally, I always look forward to a drivable par 4 or a reachable par 5. Especially when the bigger hitters get there. I think Bryson nearly driving that par 5 a few years ago generated lots of headlines and a buzz amongst many fans. And I am sure we all remember Bubba hitting that driver off the deck on the 18th par 5, and fading it on there. Few people remember the guy that lays up, pitches it on and makes a well worked birdie.

So, if LIV decide not to roll back distances, and the PGAT do, to me that is an immediate advertising campaign for LIV. "TUNE IN TO LIV, TO WATCH THE BIGGEST HITTING PLAYERS IN ELITE GOLF" . Pardon the pun, but I don't think the PGAT would want to be seen to lose any distance on LIV when comparing the 2 brands.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Yeah, no idea, if only there was a teeny shred of evidence that any of the other tours care what LIV does....

Regarding the roll back...how does that affect The PGA etc?
They are playing different courses, with different players, so there's no crossover to worry about.

In fact, if the other tours, and some of the Majors, changed, then LIV players would be at a disadvantage as they would be using different balls to the rest of the players.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Yes, sports change. But we want them to change for the better, not worse.

Yes, again, long hitters always had an advantage. Its not about that. Its about how much of an advantage.

The isse isnt about their score relative to par - thats why limits like, just grow the rough, no ball spotters for pros, etc - are not a fix. Its about the character of the game, and the mix of shots and skills.

Agree with you on the one ball for all though. But like the 0.83, or 1.68" ball adoption here, it will probably go that way in time. The trend recently has very much been for rules changes to be local rules first, general rules later.

That’s the thing though, has it changed for the worse? It’s popular with a different audience now, I would say. It should be the people that are the future of the sport deciding, not stuffy old rule makers.

Maybe that is what’s happening, I’m not close enough to it to be honest

 

[Deleted member 1147]

In all fairness, I think a lot of excitement in golf comes with big hitting. Personally, I always look forward to a drivable par 4 or a reachable par 5. Especially when the bigger hitters get there. I think Bryson nearly driving that par 5 a few years ago generated lots of headlines and a buzz amongst many fans. And I am sure we all remember Bubba hitting that driver off the deck on the 18th par 5, and fading it on there. Few people remember the guy that lays up, pitches it on and makes a well worked birdie.

So, if LIV decide not to roll back distances, and the PGAT do, to me that is an immediate advertising campaign for LIV. "TUNE IN TO LIV, TO WATCH THE BIGGEST HITTING PLAYERS IN ELITE GOLF" . Pardon the pun, but I don't think the PGAT would want to be seen to lose any distance on LIV when comparing the 2 brands.

You really think the big hitters won't still be able to reach short par 4's and get on par 5's in 2?