Roll Back Discussion

[Swango1980]

I honestly don't know how you get any of this from what I wrote.

My comment explicitly compared people in peak condition to older, weaker and unfit versions of the same people.

My last comment was simply a short response to your brief last comment on your post.

The main bulk of my post was to simply try and explain why the guys we see on the TV are hitting it so much longer. Equipment will be a large part, if we are comparing to Ben Hogan's era. However, if we are comparing to 20 odd years ago, I suspect equipment is a much smaller difference. A bigger reason is that there is a lot more competition and talent coming through into golf, and the training regimes are so much more intense and focused.

So, I don't see how the equipment plays a hugely negative role in golf. At amateur level, it helps, whilst I don't know of any local courses that are having to make any substantial changes to their layouts. And, at elite pro level, it adds to the excitement (in my view). There may be talk about these vert small fraction of elite level golf courses that have lengthened their courses over the years. However, if the equipment was changed to hit the ball shorter, would those changes become redundant? the course would need to be redesigned again, bunkers moved, etc, to account for such a change to equipment?

 

[Backsticks]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/64944020

Article suggests 10-15 yards difference with the new balls.

Don't see it making much difference in scoring at all if I'm honest.

Its not intended to make much difference. Today. But it marks the boundary and ensures further distance escalation is limited.

Only guessing, but I would say they would like to have rolled it back to 1995 and by 30 or 40 yards. But too difficult, and the horse has bolted. But still worthwhile closing the door so that the worst is past, and at least hold where we are.

 

[Backsticks]

2026 implementation date seems a bit of a cop out to me. Acknowledging the problem is one thing but from there I think it would be better if they just get on with it.

Edit: There’s also some more interesting information in the proposal notice regarding CT Creep (drivers getting springier over time) and a new investigation around that.

Its to be reasonable. The timescales they were concerned about was decades, not today. So 2026 does the job. Down the road, it will be rolled out to wider golf, but no hurry there either. The crucial point is that the limit is there.

 

[wjemather]

will certainly be interesting to see which Elite Professional tournaments you are talking about ?

Hunstanton - can’t see any in their list but Amatuer comps ?

Same with Ganton and a number of them

There are still elite comps being hosted at Sunningdale , Walton Heath and Woburn

And looking at the likes of Little Aston - they still hold the big Am comps , most of the reason for not hosting the big Pro events will be down to - money , course being able to have large numbers of spectators, access to the course, infrastructure for tented villages etc

Distance won’t make a difference to a course not hosting an event - Barbazaon is only 7000 yards and hosts Elite Pro events.

British PGA Stroke Play (at Wentworth since 1984), British PGA Match Play (now defunct), British Masters, and dozens of others.

Distance makes all the difference. Most of the courses I listed are below 7000 yards, which is now considered the absolute minimum yardage for hosting certain events; to illustrate the point, it's the only reason Burnham was recently lengthened, and as a direct result is hosting final qualifying for The Open this year.

 

[Bdill93]

Its not intended to make much difference. Today. But it marks the boundary and ensures further distance escalation is limited.

Only guessing, but I would say they would like to have rolled it back to 1995 and by 30 or 40 yards. But too difficult, and the horse has bolted. But still worthwhile closing the door so that the worst is past, and at least hold where we are.

It wasn't a complaint! I think overall its a good idea.

 

[fundy]

This is really put up or shut up time surely for the so called ruling organisations (shouldve been 20 years ago really). Either do something properly, roll back the ball/clubs explaining clearly the rationale and the impact it will fully have, apply it to everyone (give amateurs a 5 year exemption) or just let it be the free for all theyve presided over for many years. This halfway house, bifurcation with a small adjustment to the ball is pointless imho and the manufacturers will continue to exploit the loopholes as they have been with drivers etc

 

[Wabinez]

Helps the courses that will struggle to extend but are built to great standards and also allows for bombers courses to remain as such.

Is it going to be tricky for the pro's to adapt to a different ball every so often though?

I imagine the hope is that all major tours will apply the local rule, so pros will just play the same ball all the time.

2 majors are run by R&A and USGA, so it’s guaranteed they’ll apply it. Masters will likely abide by it. From there, it’ll likely trickle in

 

[D-S]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/64944020

Article suggests 10-15 yards difference with the new balls.

Don't see it making much difference in scoring at all if I'm honest.

About 8 shots a round if you believe the 'Drive for show, Putt for dough' thread.

 

[Bdill93]

I imagine the hope is that all major tours will apply the local rule, so pros will just play the same ball all the time.

2 majors are run by R&A and USGA, so it’s guaranteed they’ll apply it. Masters will likely abide by it. From there, it’ll likely trickle in

I suppose that's one way to do it, but there's plenty of courses that can cope with how far the balls going currently!

 

[Bdill93]

About 8 shots a round if you believe the 'Drive for show, Putt for dough' thread.

Doubt that!

500 yard par 5 will still be a driver and an iron lower than an 8 for most of them!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

British PGA Stroke Play (at Wentworth since 1984), British PGA Match Play (now defunct), British Masters, and dozens of others.

Distance makes all the difference. Most of the courses I listed are below 7000 yards, which is now considered the absolute minimum yardage for hosting certain events; to illustrate the point, it's the only reason Burnham was recently lengthened, and as a direct result is hosting final qualifying for The Open this year.

You said Elite ? PGA Stroke play etc they aren’t elite Pro comps

And the British Masters has been held at places like Woburn , Hillside and other course because they have infrastructure in place to support elite Pro events

I imagine the hope is that all major tours will apply the local rule, so pros will just play the same ball all the time.

2 majors are run by R&A and USGA, so it’s guaranteed they’ll apply it. Masters will likely abide by it. From there, it’ll likely trickle in

I can really only see the two majors using it

The rest will abide by player power imo and just stick with old balls

This has prob made it more of a mess than anything else

 

[wjemather]

You said Elite ? PGA Stroke play etc they aren’t elite Pro comps

And the British Masters has been held at places like Woburn , Hillside and other course because they have infrastructure in place to support elite Pro events

I really hope you are just confusing these tournaments with something else, and don't just think that elite professional tournament golf started in 1990.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Doubt that!

500 yard par 5 will still be a driver and an iron lower than an 8 for most of them!

That's a par 4 off our blue tees, and the big hitters do use less than 8 for one of them

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I really hope you are just confusing these tournaments with something else, and don't just think that elite professional tournament golf started in 1990.

So above the British Masters and PGA at Wentworth which are still hosted at courses within the UK which other elite comps where you talking about when talking about the likes of Hunstanton and Ganton etc ?

Golfers hitting it further aren’t the reason why Tour events aren’t being hosted at multiple courses around the UK and infrastructure and cost is a far bigger reason than someone hitting it 20 yards further than they did 40 years ago


And a lot of those courses you mention still host the high level elite Amatuer competitions because the demand for the infrastructure and cost is far less

 

[Shooter McPowick]

It’s farcical. The cronies at the R&A and PGA are clearly bored.

14-15 yard loss for the big hitters is what’s being quoted, that’s only 5%. It seems like a very drastic measure for such a little difference. If you’re going to change it, change it!

The science suggests an extra 1mph clubhead speed returns 2-3 yards. On average, players need to find another 5mph if they want to continue hitting it the same distances. The slower swingers will be able to close that gap easier than Rory adding 5mph, they’ll all be hitting it the same and it could make for boring viewing. Granted, this could make them less accurate so surely just make the fairways narrower, that’s something every course can do at no extra charge.

Instead, manufacturers are going to have to spend significant amounts developing new conforming balls that will be given free of charge to the players as they’re sponsored athletes. Guess who’s paying for it…. us when a dozen proV1’s cost £70

All seems nonsensical to me!

 

[BiMGuy]

So above the British Masters and PGA at Wentworth which are still hosted at courses within the UK which other elite comps where you talking about when talking about the likes of Hunstanton and Ganton etc ?

Golfers hitting it further aren’t the reason why Tour events aren’t being hosted at multiple courses around the UK and infrastructure and cost is a far bigger reason than someone hitting it 20 yards further than they did 40 years ago


And a lot of those courses you mention still host the high level elite Amatuer competitions because the demand for the infrastructure and cost is far less

Let’s be honest. Most of these courses just aren’t suitable for DPWT events.
That aside. There simply isn’t the appetite to hold any more DPWT events in the UK. They just don’t get enough support.

 

[Wabinez]

that’s something every course can do at no extra charge.

you mean aside from the cost of fertilisers, water etc to make the grass grow longer and thick enough to narrow the fairways the amount this would take?

 

[D-S]

Let’s be honest. Most of these courses just aren’t suitable for DPWT events.
That aside. There simply isn’t the appetite to hold any more DPWT events in the UK. They just don’t get enough support.

Crowds at UK DPWT events are considerably more than those almost anywhere else.
One of the main reasons old established clubs don't want DPWT events is the cost and disruption. At one of the British Masters at the Belfry a few years ago, the Tour insisted on closing the Brabazon for two weeks and the other two courses for a week - then they had exclusive use of the hotel, food and beverages included, free for 7 days. The loss of income and cost was enormous. The only revenue that the hotel got was half the gate money. Of course they did this for the advertising etc. that comes with hosting Tour events but if you have the reputation anyway, the club and members do not need the hassle.

 

[Shooter McPowick]

you mean aside from the cost of fertilisers, water etc to make the grass grow longer and thick enough to narrow the fairways the amount this would take?

 

[Crow]

I guess it will depend on the club , the pro and who is going to see them

Speaking to our new pro his lessons etc are all about looking to remove or correct swing faults , finding ways to strike the ball better , remove the duck hooks , or massive slices , plus MOTs

When it comes to those players looking to move up in the golf world will look to improve how far their hit the ball by increasing swing speed and ball speed as they grow naturally

People get enjoyment from the sport out of so many different ways beyond just hitting the ball far.

You get your enjoyment from using older clubs that have different characteristics than modern clubs , it’s all about how each person enjoys the game - and thankfully there is so many different options for people.

This weekend we played against a club who’s course is 7000 yards , ours is just 6000 - they hit the ball further than us - yet they couldn’t over power the course because it was about putting the ball in the right place not the furthest

I agree with most of that, but the modern obsession with distance has affected golf for all.
The most significant factor for me being that all balls are now geared to low spin on long shots to optimise distance, which means nobody makes a ball that spins like a balata did and so that beautiful rising flight from a driver is unachievable without massively tweaking your swing, which brings in other negatives, and ball shaping is much harder.

I do like the fact that you queried your pro on lesson types in order to add to the conversation though .