Relief from cart path...onto grass strip in the cart path ?

[Backsticks]

Ball on path. Knee deep rough on one side, my closest point of relief. But the compacted chips that are the path have a 1ft wide strip of grass/weeds growing.

Was tempted to drop onto it but wasn't sure whether I could or not.

Debate was whether that would have been taking relief at all as I still would have had my stance on the path. Or does relief only apply to the ball which would have then been on a playable surface rather than the chips, so giving me fair relief from the path.
We couldn't decide so I thinned it from the path en route to a doubleb

What's the rule - could I have dropped ?

 

[Canfordhacker]

To my mind you couldn't get full relief on the strip, so it wouldn't constitute the nearest point of relief and hence you couldn't use it.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Generally refined means full relief, so ball and feet need to be off the path
So no standing on the cart path etc

 

[Backsticks]

To my mind you couldn't get full relief on the strip, so it wouldn't constitute the nearest point of relief and hence you couldn't use it.

The strip was reachable from the nearest pt of relief (but in the heavy rough) with my driver back to the strip in the middle. (and not nearer the hole of course)

 

[Backsticks]

Generally refined means full relief, so ball and feet need to be off the path
So no standing on the cart path etc

That's the bit that put me off trying it as we were not sure. Discussion moved to whether the strip was actually path or not. And if I had dropped on it, and stood feet together to be on it too, I would have indeed been off the path. But we weren't sure what exactly was the definition of path in that case, and whether we could have defined the two lanes wheels actually rolled on as cart path but not the stripe.

 

[rulefan]

That's the bit that put me off trying it as we were not sure. Discussion moved to whether the strip was actually path or not. And if I had dropped on it, and stood feet together to be on it too, I would have indeed been off the path. But we weren't sure what exactly was the definition of path in that case, and whether we could have defined the two lanes wheels actually rolled on as cart path but not the stripe.

Was there still evidence of an artificial surface?

 

[Backsticks]

Was there still evidence of an artificial surface?

No, but we didn't inspect to that detail. For sure, it would have been a single full width path originally. But many years ago, and the middle is well grassed and weeds for years. If the ball was on it, I would have been perfectly happy to play it.

 

[jim8flog]

My comment would be that you do not get relief from a path 'per se' you get relief from an abnormal ground condition. and would question if the whole of the path would be considered an abnormal ground condition rather than sections of it in isolation.

Also as per rulefan there would be no relief (unless specified in the local rules) unless it has an artificial surface.

 

[Colin L]

My comment would be that you do not get relief from a path 'per se' you get relief from an abnormal ground condition. and would question if the whole of the path would be considered an abnormal ground condition rather than sections of it in isolation.

Also as per rulefan there would be no relief (unless specified in the local rules) unless it has an artificial surface.

Backsticks indicated that the path was surfaced with compacted chips.

 

[Colin L]

I'm not sure if I'm picturing this correctly but here's what conditions would have to be met to take relief on and play from the strip of grass:
there is no evidence of the original surfacing material on it;
part of of it is in your relief area;
you can play your dropped ball with both feet on the grass strip; or.
you can stand with both feet to the side of the path and reach over to play from the strip.

If so much as your little toe is going to touch the path or your clubhead would touch it at any point of your stroke, it's a no-no.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Strikes me that it is v unlikely that the OP’s path would have been constructed as two separate strips of compacted chips with a strip of nature left inbetween; rather much more likely, indeed highly likely, that the grass/weeds have grown down the middle where wheels have not gone. That being the case it would be my assessment that the grass/weeds strip is part of the same artificial surface from which relief is being sought so no drop on the grass/weed strip is afforded.

interesting question though as we have similar issues relief/no relief from paths/tracks, and so one of our next projects is to address and (re)build if necessary all tracks and paths so that it is absolutely clear when relief is afforded from an artificial surface and when it is not. Besides…from practical and cosmetic POVs our tracks and paths are not as good as the should be; they are a mess and need sorting and tidying up.

 

[Neilds]

Ball on path. Knee deep rough on one side, my closest point of relief. But the compacted chips that are the path have a 1ft wide strip of grass/weeds growing.

The discussion ends here. There is only one nearest point of relief and it is in the rough. If you don’t like that area then the only option is to play it as you did

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ball on path. Knee deep rough on one side, my closest point of relief. But the compacted chips that are the path have a 1ft wide strip of grass/weeds growing.

The discussion ends here. There is only one nearest point of relief and it is in the rough. If you don’t like that area then the only option is to play it as you did

Had very similar discussion at weekend. Player taking relief from immovable obstructions that were up against bushes. He asked me and I simply said to that he had to find his NPR imagining that the bushes were not there; unfortunately the NPR was in a bush and pretty much unplayable. Tough.

 

[jim8flog]

Backsticks indicated that the path was surfaced with compacted chips.

Missed that

 

[Colin L]

Missed that

That's the problem with written questions. You wouldn't miss it if you were looking at the path.

Ball on path. Knee deep rough on one side, my closest point of relief. But the compacted chips that are the path have a 1ft wide strip of grass/weeds growing.

The discussion ends here. There is only one nearest point of relief and it is in the rough. If you don’t like that area then the only option is to play it as you did

Not quite. As I said above, it could be possible that the relief area included a part of the central strip and it was possible to stand in the rough and reach over to play the ball or take a stance on the central strip and play. Without seeing the situation or knowing the measurements it's impossible to be sure but unlikely as it may seem, worth checking out.

He also had the option of penalty relief.

 

[Backsticks]

The discussion ends here. There is only one nearest point of relief and it is in the rough. If you don’t like that area then the only option is to play it as you did

I dont think it does end there. Yes, there was one 0oint of relief, but within a club length of that, I would have been able to recross the surfaced area, (away from the deep rough) and reach the grassy weedy stripe in the mddle.

However, it is correct that years ago, that stripe would have been part of the original path surfacing and clear of grass. But as correctly observed has grown over where wheels dont run. To such a degree that there is no evidence of the original surface. Indeed, I am just assuming it is beneath. Possibly should be clarified in a local rule.
While I erred on the side of caution and didnt drop, in tge absence of a clearer definition, I probably would have been correct to make my own assessment that is wasnt path, and have taken the drop.

 

[nickjdavis]

I dont think it does end there. Yes, there was one 0oint of relief, but within a club length of that, I would have been able to recross the surfaced area, (away from the deep rough) and reach the grassy weedy stripe in the mddle.

.

But if you were able to drop on that grassy strip...would it have meant that you had to still stand on the actual path to play the ball off the strip?....or was there the possibility that you could still stand somewhere ,avoiding the path, to play the ball from the grassy strip?

 

[Backsticks]

But if you were able to drop on that grassy strip...would it have meant that you had to still stand on the actual path to play the ball off the strip?....or was there the possibility that you could still stand somewhere ,avoiding the path, to play the ball from the grassy strip?

I could have stood on the grassy strip. Narrow stance, but doable. I didnt note the dimensions really, and will looknagain next time, but approximately :
- high rough on one side
- 3ft of compacted gravel, stone chip path.
- 2ft of grassy/weedy middle
- 3ft of second path line.
- then semi rough and fairway.

Cart and maintenance vehicle wheels run on the two stripes of path, which I guess keeps them clear of growth, or maybe they spray them as well
The middle stripe would be an equivalent, if slightly weedy shot challenge as hitting from the first cut. The may even cut it now I think of it as there is no long growth on it. 3 or 4 inches max maybe. No knee high stuff like on the side away from the fairway.

 

[rulefan]

Without having full knowledge of the central 'stripe' I would suggest the whole width is an Immovable Obstruction so the npfr is away from the fairway.

 

[salfordlad]

Among other issues, the alignment of thick rough on one side of such a roadway brings problems, providing comparatively greater assistance for LH or RH players depending on which side of the fairway the path/rough is on. In the ideal world, a Committee should be avoiding this. It would also make most sense to define both lanes and the middle strip as part of one single ACC/relief condition. This would avoid anyone arguing the parallel road strips are separate immovable obstructions, producing dropping complexity that would go over the heads of the majority of golfers and could result in inconsistent player behaviour. Again, Committees need to have the weather eye out to avoid such issues.