Quick poll on your new handicap index

[PJ87]

It is only 36 points if the par is 72. I agree that probably the majority of courses are par 72 but a large proportion are not. Of the five tees at my club, none are par 72. I guess that there are very few courses where all the tees are par 72. I have just taken 10 at random and there are none. In fact the first 5 I picked had no par 72 tees.

The 3 examples I found were all par 72s but SSS or Cr now varied from 70-74 are their pars 36 still or based on the cr?

 

[rulefan]

The 3 examples I found were all par 72s but SSS or Cr now varied from 70-74 are their pars 36 still or based on the cr?

Are all tees on those courses par 72?

Par is based solely on the length of each individual hole
For men
Par 3 < 261 yards
Par 4 240 - 490
Par 5 450 - 710
Par 6 > 669
The sum of the hole pars is the course par.

So 18 x 300 yards holes is par 72 and 18 x 420 yards holes is par 72

Length is only one element of the Course Rating.
The CR of the first would be about 64 and the second about 75 depending on the obstacles on the course

 

[PJ87]

Are all tees on those courses par 72?

Par is based solely on the length of each individual hole
For men
Par 3 < 261 yards
Par 4 240 - 490
Par 5 450 - 710
Par 6 > 669
The sum of the hole pars is the course par.

So 18 x 300 yards holes is par 72 and 18 x 420 yards holes is par 72

Length is only one element of the Course Rating.
The CR of the first would be about 64 and the second about 75 depending on the obstacles on the course

Keeping it completely simple.

If I play off the whites and the par of the course is 72 but rated as 74.2 is par 36 points or 34 points as per the example given by Iain yesterday? Ie par was 72 but old money sss was 74

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Keeping it completely simple.

If I play off the whites and the par of the course is 72 but rated as 74.2 is par 36 points or 34 points as per the example given by Iain yesterday? Ie par was 72 but old money sss was 74

The par of the course is still 72

For handicap purposes to play to “handicap” you would need to play to the CR ( SSS ) - so in old money 74 net or 34 points would mean playing to your handicap

Playing to 36 points would mean playing better than your handicap

 

[MarkT]

Apologies if we’ve had this - new WHS app out today, fingers crossed it works

 

[The Fader]

At the end of the day - it is what it is.

You just need to appreciate and understand that your old CONGU handicap is not directly comparable to your new Handicap Index. They are based on a completely different set of criteria and calculations.

To me, the new HI is a more reflective indicator of your current playing ability which is a good thing. No system will ever be perfect but whilst I'm sure WHS will continue to throw up more than a few anomalys it's underlying principals are sound. It may be a complex calculation but that reflects the complexity of golf - However for those who don't want to be bothered with the minutiae of the system

As DanFST said earlier -

1) Arrive at club.
2) Look at Huge poster to determine how many shots you get, at every golf course in the world.

Simples!!

 

[Orikoru]

Apologies if we’ve had this - new WHS app out today, fingers crossed it works

It was actually released over a week ago, but to limited numbers I think, they must be rolling it properly now. It's actually pretty good, you only need to put your CDH in once when you first use it, then you can open it up and see your handicap record with all your rounds on there - plus you can search for a golf course and it tells you how many shots you'll get there! Very handy.

 

[PJ87]

The par of the course is still 72

For handicap purposes to play to “handicap” you would need to play to the CR ( SSS ) - so in old money 74 net or 34 points would mean playing to your handicap

Playing to 36 points would mean playing better than your handicap

Thank you Phil. That's how I have taken what was said yesterday and where the confusion has arrises

I think it's because I'm an ex society and social golfer where par is only 36. That's it. You don't pay attention to SSS or Cr etc

So now at club level it's very confusing that you wouldn't see 36 as shot level . I know realise level at My course off whites is 34 it seems

 

[rulefan]

Thank you Phil. That's how I have taken what was said yesterday and where the confusion has arrises

I think it's because I'm an ex society and social golfer where par is only 36. That's it. You don't pay attention to SSS or Cr etc

So now at club level it's very confusing that you wouldn't see 36 as shot level . I know realise level at My course off whites is 34 it seems

There has always been confusion where the par is not equal to the SSS (under CONGU).
The problem is that players insist on relating their performance to par. It actually tells the player nothing. He would expect to take more strokes on a long par 72 than on a short par 72.

The true measure of performance is to subtract your Course Handicap from your gross shots and compare it with your Course Handicap. The difference is how well you played.

 

[PJ87]

There has always been confusion where the par is not equal to the SSS (under CONGU).
The problem is that players insist on relating their performance to par. It actually tells the player nothing. He would expect to take more strokes on a long par 72 than on a short par 72.

The true measure of performance is to subtract your Course Handicap from your gross shots and compare it with your Course Handicap. The difference is how well you played.

I thank you all very much for basically spelling it out for me a few times because it seems very complex. Im sure to everyone who's used to this it isn't at all.

The view outside of club is 36 is par . So now I know 36 isn't always level for the course the penny drops

I did think whs would make it so people scored 36 as level more rather than this way but there we are

 

[Radbourne2010]

To help with an online piece for the website can you let us know how your handicap has been affected with the new index and provide as much info and background as possible in the comments below. Much obliged..

CONGU handicap 4.0
Indicative WHS Index 3.0
White tee slope on Wandlebury Course at Gog Magog is 136 & Old Course only 118. It appears the majority of my 8 counting rounds were played on the Wandlebury course.

 

[sunshine]

I thank you all very much for basically spelling it out for me a few times because it seems very complex. Im sure to everyone who's used to this it isn't at all.

The view outside of club is 36 is par . So now I know 36 isn't always level for the course the penny drops

I did think whs would make it so people scored 36 as level more rather than this way but there we are

To be honest, the cryptic answers to Paul's questions still haven't cleared it up for me.

He referred to 2 courses both par 72, one much easier than the other. Logic and experience show that he scores much lower on the easier course. Logically he should not receive more shots on the easier course!

Course A, par 72, CR 74
Course B, par 72, CR 70

I understand there is a 4 shot gap in CR here, but shots received are calculated against par not CR!

I suppose what we are going to see is that people visiting Open championship courses are not going to receive more shots than at home, because the CR is 4 over par. Just looks a mess to me, because the methodology to determine difficulty is still fundamentally driven by a hypothetical scratch golfer.

 

[PJ87]

To be honest, the cryptic answers to Paul's questions still haven't cleared it up for me.

He referred to 2 courses both par 72, one much easier than the other. Logic and experience show that he scores much lower on the easier course. Logically he should not receive more shots on the easier course!

Course A, par 72, CR 74
Course B, par 72, CR 70

I understand there is a 4 shot gap in CR here, but shots received are calculated against par not CR!

I suppose what we are going to see is that people visiting Open championship courses are not going to receive more shots than at home, because the CR is 4 over par. Just looks a mess to me, because the methodology to determine difficulty is still fundamentally driven by a hypothetical scratch golfer.

Going to confuse My casual golf friends aswell ..

Once a year I play with 2 guys from work .. so I'll be right lads last time I played off 25 hit 36 points and everyone thought that's good

Turns out this course I need to play off 29 because level isn't 36 it's 39.

Their gonna be A confused and B think im pulling a fast one

"Bandit"

 

[Yorkshire Hacker]

I thank you all very much for basically spelling it out for me a few times because it seems very complex. Im sure to everyone who's used to this it isn't at all.

The view outside of club is 36 is par . So now I know 36 isn't always level for the course the penny drops

I did think whs would make it so people scored 36 as level more rather than this way but there we are

Thank you again pauljames87. "it seems very complex". I was laughed at on this very forum for insinuating that WHS seemed complex. I think one poster suggested I couldn't do primary school mathematics. Seems I'm not the only one round here finding it UNNECESSARILY complicated.
You and I sing on the same hymn sheet pauljames87.

 

[PJ87]

Thank you again pauljames87. "it seems very complex". I was laughed at on this very forum for insinuating that WHS seemed complex. I think one poster suggested I couldn't do primary school mathematics. Seems I'm not the only one round here finding it UNNECESSARILY complicated.
You and I sing on the same hymn sheet pauljames87.

The thing is I've been a massive fan of whs the idea of it. Listened to podcasts about it (Rick shiels) all kinds of stuff and I'm like yeah I like this is for me

Explained to my mate he said it's rubbish. Makes things more complex etc etc

I defended it and then when it rolled out it's been a massive cluster ... Of wrong indexes.. not updating ... Etc etc (appreciate it's a lot of work but why the rush to do by November covid could have delayed it naturally)

Now when I'm talking to him about it he's like I told you so.. and I'm eating humble pie that ffs this is a head scratcher

 

[rulefan]

CONGU handicap 4.0
Indicative WHS Index 3.0
White tee slope on Wandlebury Course at Gog Magog is 136 & Old Course only 118. It appears the majority of my 8 counting rounds were played on the Wandlebury course.

Slope doesn't mean much without the Course Rating.

 

[Vikingman]

As my handicap index is currently being calculated from the wrong tees at the wrong slopes I'll wait till its sorted before commenting.

 

[Scott W]

Ok so with the help of my old club I have managed to get missing rounds added and tees corrected but I have question for the guru's...is this how transition should have worked?

One of my missing rounds was a stableford from March this year (just before lockdown) where I blobbed a couple of holes including #6 which is SI2 par 4

On the day my CONGU handicap was 17.9 playing 18 so for H'cap that blob it was recorded as net double so a 7

When the round is added the WHS system takes my HI of 17.6 based on rounds to that point, adjusts for course and tees and gave me a playing h'cap of 21 so my blob becomes an 8 (net double on SI 2 with 2 strokes)

Feels like an anomaly but TBH I am exhausted with the back and forth

As someone who is bothered enough to be on forums, reading about it etc I wonder how "Wrong" so many handicaps are of folks who simply haven't checked - from my group of a dozen or so regular PP I know at least half had problems

 

[rulefan]

To be honest, the cryptic answers to Paul's questions still haven't cleared it up for me.

He referred to 2 courses both par 72, one much easier than the other. Logic and experience show that he scores much lower on the easier course. Logically he should not receive more shots on the easier course!

Course A, par 72, CR 74
Course B, par 72, CR 70

I understand there is a 4 shot gap in CR here, but shots received are calculated against par not CR!

I suppose what we are going to see is that people visiting Open championship courses are not going to receive more shots than at home, because the CR is 4 over par. Just looks a mess to me, because the methodology to determine difficulty is still fundamentally driven by a hypothetical scratch golfer.

The Course Handicap (ie strokes received) is Handicap Index x (Slope/113). Where does par come in to it?

The difficulty for an individual player depends on the Course Rating and the difference between the Course Rating and the Bogey Rating. The old CONGU SSS was only scratch based. USGA CR is not.

 

[sunshine]

The Course Handicap (ie strokes received) is Handicap Index x (Slope/113). Where does par come in to it?

The difficulty for an individual player depends on the Course Rating and the difference between the Course Rating and the Bogey Rating. The old CONGU SSS was only scratch based. USGA CR is not.

You're such an advocate of the WHS that you appear miss to the obvious here.

People measure their scores against par. It's a fundamental scoring aspect of golf. Eagle, birdie, bogey... they are all scores relative to par. What did Dustin Johnson score at the Masters? 20 under par. No normal person would say 268. If I ask a friend what they scored at the weekend, they would say "4 over", and they are talking about par not CR or SSS or CSS.

The logical handicap process is that players should get more shots on harder courses, not fewer. When I first heard about the WHS I thought it would work something like this:

Course A: par 72, CR 72. Let's say this is your home course, you play off 10. You shoot 82 - 10 = nett level par
Course B: par 72, CR 74. A tougher course, the 10 handicapper above should get a couple more shots, so you shoot 84 - 12 = nett level par.
Course C: par 72, CR 70. An easier course, the 10 handicapper should get fewer shots, You shoot 80 - 8 = nett level par.

It's a simplistic example and I expected the slope to add moderate the crude CR calculation for different abilities.