Putting with the flag in the hole

[mikejohnchapman]

That's a tough call without a clear definition of "deliberately". If a player removes the flagstick instinctively, as in out of habit, was the flagstick removed "deliberately"?

Yes it is - can only see tripping over and grabbing the flag etc ranking as an accident.

 

[Imurg]

Yes it is - can only see tripping over and grabbing the flag etc ranking as an accident.

Agreed
If you put a hand on the flag stick and pull it out - that's a deliberate act whether you were thinking about it or not.
Its along the lines of, if you play a lot of solo golf, not marking your ball on the green to pick and clean but doing the same when you're playing a comp just because it's a habit..

 

[Old Skier]

We have now received guidance from the Union for comps and supplementary scores

Holes
If clubs have made the decision to modify the depth of a hole to allow players to remove
the ball without touching the flagstick, scores will ONLY BE ACCEPTED if the hole is
modified to the extent that it still allows any part of the ball to drop below the surface of the
putting green.
In such cases, the ball is considered holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the
putting green, even if not lodged against the flagstick.

Raised hole liners (i.e. Those sticking up above ground level) CANNOT be used for
Qualifying or Supplementary Scores.

We recommend the following Local Rule:
Local Rule – Ball Holed
A player’s ball is considered ‘holed’ when any part of the ball is below the surface of the
putting green, even if not lodged against the flagstick.
Penalty for Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty

A number of local rules have been produced if clubs wish to proceed with supplementary cards and for moving forward when clubs start qualifying comps.

 

[rulie]

The other recommendation we have received is that if a player deliberately removes the flagstick then they incur a penalty.

BTW, that would be an improper Local Rule since it modifies a Rule of golf.

 

[Old Skier]

BTW, that would be an improper Local Rule since it modifies a Rule of golf.

Issued by the R&A. I would post it but I'm not on my PC

 

[SammmeBee]

Issued by the R&A. I would post it but I'm not on my PC

So which one is correct?

 

[rulefan]

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. If by general consensus the committee and all the players agree to the 'rules' set down by the committee, that is it as far as the competition is concerned. The R&A have no power to enforce any sanctions.
If in addition, the national authority for managing the handicap system in force at the time, approve the local rule variants, then handicap adjustments can be made.

 

[SammmeBee]

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. If by general consensus the committee and all the players agree to the 'rules' set down by the committee, that is it as far as the competition is concerned. The R&A have no power to enforce any sanctions.
If in addition, the national authority for managing the handicap system in force at the time, approve the local rule variants, then handicap adjustments can be made.

Have you been listening to Boris?!

 

[cliveb]

Has anybody else noticed that they have been lipping out a lot more recently?
Without hitting the flag.

Definitely. And not just lipping out. My club is using foam inserts, but they are only about 1cm below the surface. I've seen quite a few putts that would have dropped under normal circumstances but bounced off the foam and out of the hole.
We now have to try and trickle putts in to stop the "bounce out". Anyone whose putting style is to hit the ball firmly into the back of the cup has been disadvantaged.

 

[cliveb]

Just tell them and ask them to push the foam a bit lower.

I believe the foam is as high as it is so that a holed ball can easily be picked up without any danger of brushing the flagstick with part of the hand. That's understandable and has my support. The extra difficulty it gives to putting is a small price to pay. We're all just glad to be able to play at all.

 

[rulie]

If nobody has touched the flagstick since it was sanitized, where is the risk of "brushing it with part of the hand"? I'm not being cavalier, but that risk would be very, very low - several zeros after the decimal point before any other digit.
Cut the foam noodles a little shorter so the ball can fall further into the hole and be holed. We've found that about 1/2 inch below the top of the regular cup is just right.

 

[cliveb]

If nobody has touched the flagstick since it was sanitized, where is the risk of "brushing it with part of the hand"? I'm not being cavalier, but that risk would be very, very low - several zeros after the decimal point before any other digit.

I agree that the risk is vanishingly small, but don't see any point being picky about it with the greens staff, who have done a wonderful job.

Cut the foam noodles a little shorter so the ball can fall further into the hole and be holed. We've found that about 1/2 inch below the top of the regular cup is just right.

They are about 1/2 inch down. Surely you must have seen cases of the ball bouncing off the foam and out of the hole? Or maybe our foam is bouncier than yours?

 

[jim8flog]

BTW, that would be an improper Local Rule since it modifies a Rule of golf.

The available Local Rule has been issued by the Area Authority and I therefore assume with the approval of the R&A.

Various newly available local rules modify the Rules as laid out in the book but have been approved or issued by the R&A

As already said by others and I agree the word deliberately needs clarification. I would like to see it as something on the lines 'but puts it back in before making the stroke'............

 

[rulie]

I agree that the risk is vanishingly small, but don't see any point being picky about it with the greens staff, who have done a wonderful job.

They are about 1/2 inch down. Surely you must have seen cases of the ball bouncing off the foam and out of the hole? Or maybe our foam is bouncier than yours?

Agree that the staff have done wonderful jobs. The pool noodle foam on our course is about 1/2 inch below the "cup", not 1/2 inch below the green surface. The "cup" is normally set one inch below the surface of the putting green. That makes the foam about 1 1/2 inches below the surface of the putting green. I've played about 20 rounds, in groups of four, since the pool noodles were installed and have not seen any ball "bounce" out of the hole or be unduly rejected.

 

[cliveb]

Agree that the staff have done wonderful jobs. The pool noodle foam on our course is about 1/2 inch below the "cup", not 1/2 inch below the green surface. The "cup" is normally set one inch below the surface of the putting green. That makes the foam about 1 1/2 inches below the surface of the putting green. I've played about 20 rounds, in groups of four, since the pool noodles were installed and have not seen any ball "bounce" out of the hole or be unduly rejected.

Ah right, that explains it. Our foam is about 1/2 inch below the surface of the green.
Do the England Golf recommendations say anything about how far down the inserts should be?
I won't make a fuss though - happy to be playing at all.

 

[rulefan]

Ah right, that explains it. Our foam is about 1/2 inch below the surface of the green.
Do the England Golf recommendations say anything about how far down the inserts should be?
I won't make a fuss though - happy to be playing at all.

Sufficient to be able to retrieve the ball without touching the flagstick.

The actual words are:
A method of inserting the hole liner to be used that means all of the ball does not fall below the surface of the putting green and can be easily retrieved by handling the ball only

 

[Old Skier]

Reversing the cup has worked fine at our course.

 

[USER1999]

I hate putting with the flag in.

 

[tobybarker]

Or club uses a nifty lift up gadget that you lift with your putter and the ball is dropped out onto the green again. However subgenres they stick in the up position, meaning your ball can fail to drop... annoying if you haven't noticed

On the subject of flag sticks, when it's windy (it often is on Anglesey) the stick can be leaning towards you in the hole, meaning that you literally can't get the ball in the hole. Hardly seems fair. I suggested we get thinner sticks like you see on tour, but that was met with resistance.

 

[DickInShorts]

Or club uses a nifty lift up gadget that you lift with your putter and the ball is dropped out onto the green again. However subgenres they stick in the up position, meaning your ball can fail to drop... annoying if you haven't noticed

On the subject of flag sticks, when it's windy (it often is on Anglesey) the stick can be leaning towards you in the hole, meaning that you literally can't get the ball in the hole. Hardly seems fair. I suggested we get thinner sticks like you see on tour, but that was met with resistance.

See latest update from R&A:
Fellow competitor - or opponent - can hold flagstick upright using a club if it’s leaning