Provisionals and unplayable lies

[rosecott]

Par 3. You hit a ball that may be lost in the jungle. You hole your provisional. You search for your original. Really ???

No, but my fellow competitors may search for it and, if they find it before I remove the ball from the hole, I'm back with the original ball.

 

[Foxholer]

There being the honest part :thup: by declaring it a provo you announce your intention to look for it , but if ya don't find it , you will go with the second one may not be a rule, but its honest

Wrong!

All you have announced id that you are playing a Provisional Ball. You ere entitled to do anything that The Rules allow you to do!
And ignoring the first ball in favour of the second (under penalty) is one of the things you are allowed to do.

Par 3. You hit a ball that may be lost in the jungle. You hole your provisional. You search for your original. Really ???

I have been in this exact situation when my fellow competitor holed his Provisional. I didn't hurry to look for his first - until he'd picked his 2nd ball out of the hole.

 

[Imurg]

I have been in this exact situation when my fellow competitor holed his Provisional. I didn't hurry to look for his first - until he'd picked his 2nd ball out of the hole.

This has always annoyed me a little.
A ball is holed (ie that hole is completed) when it is at rest in the cup and all of it is below the level of the green.
So why isn't the "hole-in-one" with the provisional ball holed until you remove it?

 

[Slab]

This has always annoyed me a little.
A ball is holed (ie that hole is completed) when it is at rest in the cup and all of it is below the level of the green.
So why isn't the "hole-in-one" with the provisional ball holed until you remove it?

Cos the provisional ball has not yet been the ball in-play so the hole cant be completed yet

 

[CMAC]

Par 3. You hit a ball that may be lost in the jungle. You hole your provisional. You search for your original. Really ???

personally I would still look for my first ball, it could be sitting clear, plus rough doesnt scare me and I might hole it for a birdie:whoo:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

One other point, "declaring a ball lost" has no meaning.

e.g. In a match you carve your tee shot into the bundoo, then correctly declare and play a provisional.

On approaching the area were your first ball went, you think that the ball might be in deep trouble so you "declare it lost". Your opponents are quite entitled to go and look for it and, if they find it before you next play your provisional, tough!

Tough on who - you or opponent? I assume tough on your opponents - though they could then claim ownership of the ball as they found a lost ball

 

[Leftie]

Tough on who - you or opponent? I assume tough on your opponents - though they could then claim ownership of the ball as they found a lost ball

Potentially tough on you - particularly if it is in a really bad position as that is still the ball in play. They can't claim ownership as the ball wasn't lost as a provisional had been declared and played. As I said, declaring a ball lost has absolutely no meaning.

 

[duncan mackie]

Soo........

If a yellow staked ditch lies in the really rough rough, you drive towards it but due to light conditions (or semi-blindness!) you can't tell if it cleared, dropped in or dropped short but it's still in the clag - can you hit a Provisional? After all, it "might" be lost in the hazard.....

yes, you can play a provisional ball in the normal way

if the ball is found in the water hazard then the provisional ball is out of play

if the ball isn't found then the provisional ball becomes the ball in play

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Potentially tough on you - particularly if it is in a really bad position as that is still the ball in play. They can't claim ownership as the ball wasn't lost as a provisional had been declared and played. As I said, declaring a ball lost has absolutely no meaning.

See - here's me with something that I never really think about and think I understand then a doiscussion here and begin to doubt myself. So. I have hit a tee shot into badland; I declare I am playing a provisional and bang it up the middle. As I walk up the fairway I decide that I wouldn't want to play my original whetever the circumstances, and so don't want to find it. So don't go to look for my original ball and walk to my provisional declaring my original is lost. You saying I CAN'T do that. As far as I am concerned it is lost. If my partner or opposition find my original after I have declared it lost then surely it is still lost and I can play my provisional.

 

[bobmac]

If my partner or opposition find my original after I have declared it lost then surely it is still lost and I can play my provisional.

Nope.
The original ball is still in play until you have play a stroke with your provisional ball from a point that is nearer the target than your original ball would be

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Nope.
The original ball is still in play until you have play a stroke with your provisional ball from a point that is nearer the target than your original ball would be

Ok - that's what I thought - I was just getting confused (must keep up). I am aware that if I see it disappearing into Badlands I can decide it is lost at thyat point and put another ball into play (not a provisional). Then it matters not whether original is found - I play the second ball.

 

[Kellfire]

Nope.
The original ball is still in play until you have play a stroke with your provisional ball from a point that is nearer the target than your original ball would be

Or five minutes passes from the time anyone begins to search?

 

[rosecott]

Or five minutes passes from the time anyone begins to search?

No, not anyone. The 5 minutes starts when the player or his side or his/their caddy starts the search.

 

[brickie]

Something else to consider......... played a provisional after first ball in the deep rough...... On seeing the rough don't want to find it but playing partners insist on going for a look...........My provisional is further up the fairway than their shots.......I would like to play my provisional to put it into play but can't because I would be playing out of turn.......I have to wait till they find my original ball or abandon the search...Is this correct???

 

[pogle]

Something else to consider......... played a provisional after first ball in the deep rough...... On seeing the rough don't want to find it but playing partners insist on going for a look...........My provisional is further up the fairway than their shots.......I would like to play my provisional to put it into play but can't because I would be playing out of turn.......I have to wait till they find my original ball or abandon the search...Is this correct???

No. In stroke play there is no penalty for playing out of turn unless players have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage - they are then both disqualified. In match play, your opponent can cancel the shot and have it replayed in correct order, but there is no penalty.

In both cases your provisional is now the ball in play because you have played it from closer to the hole that where the original ball is likely to be.

 

[SaintHacker]

But if someone finds a ball and thinks it may be yours, are you not obliged to go and identify it one way or the other?

To the OP - once you found your 1st tee shot you could have deemed it unplayable and gone back to the tee and hit another tee shot if dropping wasn't viable and you couldn't hack out but as soon as the original is found the provisional becomes out of play.

Wow, didn't expect to open such a can of worms!
This was the point of my question, as the ball was unplayable nd my dropping options were utterly rubbish the most sensible thing on reflection would have been to go back and hit another tee shot, as I'd already done that in case the ball was lost, are you saying that I couldn't declare my first ball unplayable and play the second one (taking 3 off the tee), thus saving time walking back and further holding up everyone behind? Sorry if I didn't make the original post a bit clearer.

 

[Foxholer]

Wow, didn't expect to open such a can of worms!
This was the point of my question, as the ball was unplayable nd my dropping options were utterly rubbish the most sensible thing on reflection would have been to go back and hit another tee shot, as I'd already done that in case the ball was lost, are you saying that I couldn't declare my first ball unplayable and play the second one (taking 3 off the tee), thus saving time walking back and further holding up everyone behind? Sorry if I didn't make the original post a bit clearer.

No. You can't do that. The sole purpose of a Provisional ball is to save time, should you not be able to find it - or it is OOB. Once you find the original, the provisional one is out of play. Then you have to decide what to do with the situation you find, one option of which is to go back and play from where the previous shot was played (under penalty)).

 

[CliveW]

As I walk up the fairway I decide that I wouldn't want to play my original whetever the circumstances, and so don't want to find it. So don't go to look for my original ball and walk to my provisional declaring my original is lost. You saying I CAN'T do that. As far as I am concerned it is lost.

A player cannot just declare a ball lost.

 

[Slab]

Wow, didn't expect to open such a can of worms!
This was the point of my question, as the ball was unplayable nd my dropping options were utterly rubbish the most sensible thing on reflection would have been to go back and hit another tee shot, as I'd already done that in case the ball was lost, are you saying that I couldn't declare my first ball unplayable and play the second one (taking 3 off the tee), thus saving time walking back and further holding up everyone behind? Sorry if I didn't make the original post a bit clearer.

But in this scenario the first ball wasn't lost so your provisional ball can never enter play (you say yourself it was hit in case you lost the 1st, not because you might need to consider the options for an unplayable)

Further you'd be changing your ball during play of a hole which I think carries a penalty (unless 1st ball is damaged) Edit to add: Just looked and if using rule 28 for unplayable it does allow you to change the ball, learn t something new today

 

[rosecott]

But in this scenario the first ball wasn't lost so your provisional ball can never enter play (you say yourself it was hit in case you lost the 1st, not because you might need to consider the options for an unplayable)

Further you'd be changing your ball during play of a hole which I think carries a penalty (unless 1st ball is damaged) Edit to add: Just looked and if using rule 28 for unplayable it does allow you to change the ball, learn t something new today

Nothing at all to do with the rules, but my daughter is back on longhaul and there's a decent chance I might end up in Mauritius for a few days. Anything on offer?